AUDIO TRANSCRIPT
[For quotation purposes, confirm audio]
Title: John Pilger on WikiLeaks, Julian Assange & Jeremy Corbyn
"John Pilger is an Australian born journalist and film-maker who has twice won Britain's Journalist of the Year award."
Originally aired on Sunday Morning, Sunday 23 August 2015
PROGRAM LINK |
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/201767629/john-pilger-on-wikileaks,-julian-assange-and-jeremy-corbyn
DIRECT LINK AUDIO |
http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player/201767629
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Wallace Chapman
Presenter, Radio NZ National
For 3 years, WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, has sought asylum within the Ecuadorian embassy, London, at a cost of millions of pounds. He has been facing sexual assault allegations, which actually expired this past week, although he can still face charges on a rape allegation for a further 5 years.
John Pilger is an Australian-born journalist & film-maker. He's twice won Britain's Journalist of the Year Award. And he says it's been an unrelenting campaign by Sweden and the US to deny Julian Assange justice and, of course, his freedom. John Pilger is in no doubt about the impact that Julian Assange and WikiLeaks has on society.
John Pilger
Investigative Journalist
I think it's had a huge impact on both society and on journalism. I mean, the best of journalism, in my experience, always relied on what we called 'whistleblowers.' People from inside who can tell us the things that vested interests and governments don't want us to know; and I think they've done that with such a dimension that we now have quite a different standard of investigative journalism, now, to reach.
And as far as society is concerned, I think they've told people what so many people — millions of people — suspected anyway: that their governments weren't telling them the truth; and that vested interests weren't telling them the truth; that they were being deceived; that democracy wasn't working properly; that there wasn't the kind of accountability that they suspected.
WikiLeaks' contribution to that, I think, has been quite extraordinary.
Wallace Chapman
Presenter, Radio NZ National
It's been compared, hasn't it, to Daniel Ellsberg's revelation of the Pentagon Papers (US war related secrets of 1971). Do you think that's a fair or valid comparison?
John Pilger
Investigative Journalist
Yes, it is. Absolutely.
I know Dan Ellsberg and I've talked to him about it and he makes that comparison. That he's very much a supporter of WikiLeaks now. And Ellsberg — what Ellsberg released (and this was a whistleblower from within the system), he — the Pentagon Papers actually told the truth about the Vietnam war. It told the truth — the kind of official truth that people didn't know. They were official documents, and they really had an extraordinary impact then on public opinion. They supported that all-truth that information is power. People then had information. Now, what people do with information is up to them. But to be able to get it — as they got it through Ellsberg, and they got it through WikiLeaks, and they got it through Chelsea Manning, and they got it through numerous other very courageous whistleblowers. That's very important, and it's a lesson for us journalists.
Wallace Chapman
Presenter, Radio NZ National
The nature of the whilsteblower. Let me ask you this, then, John. Daniel Ellsberg over 40 years ago, Julian Assange now — to some, you know, to many he's a hereo (people like Yoko Ono & Ken Loach have visited him at the Ecuadorian embassy) — but what was the - what did people think of Daniel Ellsberg at the time, because there's been quite a level of vitriol to Julian Assange. How was Daniel Ellsberg treated by the public and by the establishment.
John Pilger
Investigative Journalist
I think Ellsberg was also, really, was subjected to a certain level of vitriol. Usually, whistleblowers are. I remember Ellsberg actually being called a traitor.
Wallace Chapman
Presenter, Radio NZ National
[Interjects] Really?
John Pilger
Investigative Journalist
— and, indeed, he won his court actions, which were really based on that broad allegation that he'd committed some form of treason. So, you know, his character was called into question and so on, in a different way from the attacks on Julian Assange.
Another great whistleblower — long forgotten — who's now the subject of a movie called, interestingly, 'Shoot the Messenger,' whose name is Gary Webb: Gary Webb disclosed, in the United States, that — how the CIA was involved in drug trafficking into the United States. Now, Gary Webb's greatest enemies were the rest of media, who hadn't got the story and attacked him.
Something similar has happened with Julian Assange. It's certainly muddied by the fact that he was caught in a situation in Sweden, which those who were his enemies, anyway, were able to exploit. And — but, my understanding (and I've known Assange for quite some time and I followed this case very quickly) is, that the amount of vitriol comes down to the degree of truth-telling: truth-telling about great power.
There is — and I've found this in my career — there is a real ruthlessness in great power: be it in governments, big corporations, vested interests — particularly in very, very powerful governments. There is a ruthlessness in their response, if you expose what they are doing, and if it's something they don't want the public to know about.
Wallace Chapman
Presenter, Radio NZ National
And you've experienced it yourself?
John Pilger
Investigative Journalist
Yes, I have, most certainly, in a lot of the work I've done right throughout south-east Asia and in investigative work in the UK. For example, I had a lot to do with revealing the thalidomide — the extent that thalidomide, the drug, was was damaging children. I found myself subjected to all kinds of abuse and smear. Smear. Smear is probably an investigative journalist's greatest enemy.
There was a very interesting document that WikiLeaks got hold of in 2008 which foretold everything — [laughs] almost everything - that has happened to Julian Assange. It said that (and I paraphrase it) - that if - that, because WikiLeaks was revealing so many of these truths, the only way to deal with it was to discredit it, and to discredit Assange. To smear, in other words.
I mean, it really spells it out, in very plain English, that there's going to be a campaign of discrediting against anyone like Assange who dares to tell the public the kinds of secrets that it needs to know, that it's prevented from knowing.
Wallace Chapman
Presenter, Radio NZ National
Well, in fact, you say on Julian Assange — you write that in Alexandria, Virginia, a secret grand jury spent 5 years attempting to contrive a crime for which Assange can be prosecuted. Can you explain a little bit for us, what do you mean by that?
John Pilger
Investigative Journalist
Well, yes.
I mean, that's, that's — they've admitted that now. There is, in Virginia, which — the grand jury in the United States—
The grand juries draw from the area in which they sit. Now this area [laughs] has in it the US Defence Department, the Pentagon, the CIA, and all the great institutions of American power, so that determines, really, the character of the grand jury. And the grand jury can then issue indictments.
Now, this grand jury has been sitting in secret, now, for several years, and the problem it faces in trying to bring a charge against Assange and WikiLeaks is that the constitution (the US constitution), says very clearly that whistleblowers — truth-tellers — are protected it (by the Constitution) and, ironically, it was President Obama (a professor of constitutional law) who said, very early in his presidency, that whilstleblowers had the protection of the constitution. Now, I say 'ironically,' because more whistleblowers have been prosecuted under Obama than during all the presidents of the past.
So, this grand jury has an uphill task, and the one charge it seems that it might be able to come up with is a First World War espionage charge, which was really directed at conscientious objectors during the First World War, all those years ago: a century ago.
That's all it can find. The problem there is that Julian Assange isn't an American. That never seams to bother American courts that people — there are some people in the world who are not Americans. So, it's a difficult thing.
But there's no question that what the documents show — the FBI has something like a 50,000 page file on him — what all these documents that have come out have shown, and what they've virtually admitted: that the moment Assange sets out the door of the Ecuadorian embassy in London, in some way — in some way — the United States (with help from its so-called allies) will get its hands on Julian Assange.
Wallace Chapman
Presenter, Radio NZ National
And is that why the 24 hour around the clock police cordon? There are police appearing —
John Pilger
Investigative Journalist
Well, no because [laughs] — they don't prevent people going in, but Assange isn't going anywhere.
All that is, this 24-hour cordon, it's theatrical. It's a show of force by the state. It's the British government saying — and the Metropolitan Police in London — saying: Well, we're not having this. How dare this man go and seek political refuge and be granted it by another government. It's pointless —
Wallace Chapman
Presenter, Radio NZ National
[Interjects] John —
John Pilger
Investigative Journalist
— one policeman outside the door is more than enough because, as everybody knows, Assange isn't going anywhere.
Wallace Chapman
Presenter, Radio NZ National
I'm speaking with Julian As— John Pilger.
And there are those who listen to this, too, who will say that there — these, you know, these charges — these allegations — they—
John Pilger
Investigative Journalist
[Interjects]
You've got to be careful with that. That's a very common slip. And I understand you make it. There— Assange has been —
The disgrace about all of this is this man has not been charged with anything. What's more, that the original prosecutor in this case in Sweden, threw it out — threw allegations out — and the second prosecutor, who has perused him, allowed him to leave Sweden, and said that's fine.
The second prosecutor has been offered every facility to question Julian Assange over 5 years. The British government has pleaded with her, virtually, to come to London. It's a normal procedure. At the same time, Sweden has (in London) interviewed something like 44 other people connected with allegations in Sweden, but not Assange.
Wallace Chapman
Presenter, Radio NZ National
So what's going on here — why?
John Pilger
Investigative Journalist
Why?
Well, I think it's a combination of reasons, here.
There's no evidence — that's number one.
I've seen the evidence; there's no evidence. Both these women have said they were not raped. They've both said it's consensual — it was consensual sex. Their SMS messages — one says the police have tried to railroad them into this. The pressures on these two women have been extraordinary. One can only have — one can only have sympathy for them.
It's a combination of whys.
There's an obsession about this prosecutor, and my sense is that the Swedish authorities haven't quite known what to do about it. The Swedish High Court has reprimanded her for not getting on with the case.
Wallace Chapman
Presenter, Radio NZ National
Is this Marianne Ny?
John Pilger
Investigative Journalist
Yes, Marianne Ny.
Wallace Chapman
Presenter, Radio NZ National
What's the relationship, John, between Swe— Washington and Stockholm? Is, because Sweden is, you know, meant to be something of a liberal bastion, isn't it? So what is—
John Pilger
Investigative Journalist
[Interjects]
Well—
Wallace Chapman
Presenter, Radio NZ National
—what sort of relationship do they have?
John Pilger
Investigative Journalist
Well, Sweden is not a liberal bastion.
Sweden has basked in its— It is in some areas, yes. It has enlightened social policies towards the vulnerable and the elderly, and so on, although these have been much broken down over the years. But, in a cultural sense, that image of Sweden going back to the 1960s, as a great libertarian country, no longer exists.
Sweden has rather a dark side. It's not a member of NATO, but it's almost a much more committed associate of the United States in that part of the world, and the last government in Sweden had very close links with the extreme right in the Republican party, and it has various associations in the arms business, and so on.
So Sweden has a— Swe— Swe— I suppose Sweden plays the same games that countries within a certain sphere of do these days. It is no different from that. But what it does have, as I mentioned, is a very close relationship with the US, and The Independent newspaper, here, revealed that there had been discussions between the Swedish authorities and the US on Assange.
I don't think that anyone really has any serious doubts that should Assange go to Sweden (where there is no bail —therefore he goes— would go straight into prison regardless of having not been charged with anything) — that once confined — that something similar would happen to him, as has happened to other people who have been subjected to rendition to the United States from Sweden.
This is all guess work, of course, but the assumption has a great deal of credibility.
Wallace Chapman
Presenter, Radio NZ National
John Pilger, how do you think, then, this will all play out? He's been, what, 3 years inside the Ecuadorian embassy. As I understand it — you might have gone and visited him — but, as I understand it, no sunlight, small room. Ken Loach, the film director, he gave him a walker, I think, one of those exerciser machines, didn't he?
John Pilger
Investigative Journalist
Yes.
Wallace Chapman
Presenter, Radio NZ National
So, what's going to happen, is my question?
John Pilger
Investigative Journalist
I see Julian Assange regularly, and I've been to the embassy many times. And, it's really — inside, it's like your living room and my living room. Yes, sunlight comes in through the windows, but with the police pretty well outside, you have to keep the curtains closed, otherwise you have a member of the constabulary looking in on you and, so, it's a very confined space. And it's the kind of thing that no human being should have to go through. It's the sort of detention that, really, is against all the post war covenants of human rights and so on. But it is a place of refuge, and that's why he's there.
Wallace Chapman
Presenter, Radio NZ National
Finally, John Pilger, I just — before you go, I just wonder if you've got a couple of thoughts on the Labour leadership in the UK — Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour leader contender - he continues to do well in the polls. In fact, the press has dubbed it 'Corbyn Mania.' His views are very much to the left of the Labour mainstream: he wants to, you know, withdraw from NATO; abolish the UK's nuclear arsenal.
So, where, can I ask you, where is he drawing his support, and why do you think it's happening?
John Pilger
Investigative Journalist
It says something about the mainstream [laughs] when you describe it that way.
Jeremy Corbyn is actually the mainstream. And who these people are - it's such fun to watch them so hysterical over somebody who might be democratically elected by ordinary people. What a terrible thing to happen. They used to call this democracy. But because they've stitched up the system for such a long time; especially, since the rise of Tony Blair and his evangelical followers, who dominate the Labour party, still; because this man who has rather moderate views and old fashioned views (the kind of old fashioned views that most people subscribe to), and because people are so frustrated all over the world — I'm sure it's true in New Zealand, as well (it certainly is in Australia) — are frustrated that there isn't a functioning democracy; that the views of people - the frustrations of people — are not reflected by their politicians.
Suddenly, out comes a man who, first of all, he's completely incorruptible; he's decent; he doesn't abuse people; he doesn't play all their games; he doesn't want to go to war with countries; he doesn't want to bomb countries; he doesn't want to see people impoverished; and he doesn't want to see extremely rich interests make off with billions of pounds.
So having these outrageous views — thoroughly 'outrageous,' 'extremist' views - Jeremy Corbyn has attracted an enormous support from people.
I was in Edinburgh recently and I gave a talk, and I would have thought that, probably, most of the people in the audience had voted for the SNP — voted for Independent — gee, were they interested in Corbyn, even up there.
So, don't know. I think it's very likely the elected leader of the Labour party whether he can get through and keep that rather corrupted organisation in a shape that it might win the election, I have no idea. But he's certainly given people — he's cheered people up. He's given them a sense that maybe some things are possible.
Wallace Chapman
Presenter, Radio NZ National
Journalist and film-maker, John Pilger, thank you very much for your time.
John Pilger
Investigative Journalist
You're very welcome. Bye, Bye.
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