US WAR
on
SYRIA
Afshin Rattansi
goes underground
with
the world's
most wanted publisher
the founder of
WIKILEAKS
JULIAN ASSANGE
BOOK
Assange, co-author:
The WikiLeaks Files (2015) | here
|
VIDEO SOURCE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ztai31ZpTCk&feature=youtu.be
TRANSCRIPT
[for quotation purposes, confirm audio]
AFSHIN RATTANSI
GoingUndergroundRT
Welcome to Going Underground. I'm Afshin Rattansi.
We're outside the Ecuadorian Embassy in Central London.
As the Tories try to convince us into bombing Syria to save it, we're going to speak to the world's most wanted publisher, the founder of WIKILEAKS, JULIAN ASSANGE, under siege from UK police at a cost of millions of pounds to the UK taxpayer.
[ Book] The WikiLeaks Files has just been published, and it paints a picture of US destabilisation of the lives of billions of people, right around the world.
And, as David Cameron finally admits that the UK is involved in extra judicial killing, using the most infamous of ISIS recruitment sergeants, the Reaper Drone, we look at the British connection to US atrocities.
For all this, and the analysis of critical US State Department cables from the millions published by WIKILEAKS, let's go Underground.
AFSHIN RATTANSI
GoingUndergroundRT
Julian, thanks to you and the Ecuadorian Embassy for letting us in again.
So, how do you think this book will address the censoring of WIKILEAKS in mainstream media and academia? You outlined that it's banned in the Library of Congress, university students at Columbia being told not to tweet or Facebook some of the cables.
JULIAN ASSANGE
Publisher WikiLeaks
Well, when I was writing an introduction to this book, I thought: well, we really need to describe why people should read the book. So what's new about it? Didn't the newspapers already cover all this material?
OK. Well, the Cablegate cables -- that's 251,000 cables -- we released them in 2010-2011.
But subsequently, right up through this year [2015], we've published ten times as many cables.
We've now published 2.7 million and another 7.3 million documents altogether.
So, ten (10) million documents in total.
And why haven't newspapers covered all that? Well, it's a lot of material, but also they engage in censorship; and they do it for a variety of reasons.
The cables are very interesting, because the way we dealt with the media was that we had a hundred (100) different media groups we were involved with, and they got the same material.
So, we were able to compare The New York Times to Le Monde, to Greenpeace, to all different groups working with our material, and see that they all have their particular biases, and they select some material and also redact other cables, for other reasons.
2:48
The big surprise to me, was not the media censorship. We've worked out ways to smash through that in certain cases. In other cases, it's become very normal, and I think there's even a -- the general public understands now, that each media outlet censors things in its own particular ways.
The surprise, to me, was the academic censorship. And the academic censorship is not uniform, even within the US and the UK.
The academic censorship is not, for example, in epidemiology It's not, for example, in computer vision. It's, not for example, computational linguistics.
It's not, broadly speaking, in the sciences or medicine, where there's some thirty thousand (30,000) citations, to material in WIKILEAKS.
epidemiology: pertaining to discipline of medicine | study: patterns, causes & effects conditions & diseases - here
computational linguistics: discipline between linguistics and computer science. Cognitive sciences branch, overlapping field of artificial intelligence (AI) re computational models of human cognition - here
[3:35]
It's not even in the courts. European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) used that material, international tribunals, even UK domestic courts.
It's in foreign relations academic journals published in the United States and, perhaps, in the UK.
AFSHIN RATTANSI
GoingUndergroundRT
They're trying to erase what you've been publishing from the field of international relations.
JULIAN ASSANGE
Publisher WikiLeaks
That's right. And even worse than the US media. The New York Times, for all its problems, published about 100 of our cables.
OK, we've published 2.7 million, so 100 isn't great. But it has at least done 100.
La Times publishes. Every couple of days there's one media outlet in the US that will publish something.
But international relations journals, no. So, what's going on?
[4:22]
It turned out that there is, in fact, a formal policy at the largest -- or the most prestigious international relations journal -- International Relations Quarterly (IRQ), and the editor admitted that he'd been placed in an untenable position by the umbrella organisation (the ISA: International Studies Association) and, as a result, there's the policy of not accepting anything derived from WIKILEAKS cables, because they're nervous about classified material.
But, other journals in the United States are not nervous.
4:59
AFSHIN RATTANSI
GoingUndergroundRT
Well, I want to get into why that might not be so surprising as we go through some of the relations outlined in the book.
Let's turn to the subject of -- according to the media at the moment -- imminent war on Syria and imminent vote (who knows?) in Parliament again, for British bombing of Syria.
You outlined - or, the book outlines -- how there's been little change between George W. Bush and Obama; how the US policy, all through, had little to do with human rights in Syria and much more to do with sponsoring Iraqi style sectarianism that led us to ISIS and, of course, the refugee crisis, which is making headlines now.
JULIAN ASSANGE
Publisher WikiLeaks
That's right. Our Syria chapter goes back to 2006. There's a very important cable, in 2006, from Ambassador Roebuck, stationed in Damascus and he writes back discussing a plan for the overthrow of the Assad government in Syria.
And that plan is not: well, we should, you know, support the opposition and so on, through better media planning and so on.
It's to use a number of different factors to create paranoia within the Syrian government, to push it to overreact, to make it fear that there's a coup, to use its manoeuvres against the Islamic extremists against it.
So, when Syria says:
we have a problem with Islamic extremists crossing over the border with Iraq, and we're taking actions against them
to take this information and make the Syrian government look weak, [given] the fact that it is dealing with Islamic extremists at all.
And then, most seriously, to foster tensions between Shiites and Sunnis.
And, in particular, take rumours which they know to be false -- and say in the cable they know to be false or exaggerations -- and promote them, that Iran is trying to convert poor Sunnis; and to work with Saudi and Egypt to foster that perception, in order to make it harder for Iran to have influence, and also for the government to have influence in the population.
7:20
AFSHIN RATTANSI
GoingUndergroundRT
This man, Roebuck -- now Ambassador to Bahrain -- so caught there, deliberately trying to foster the kind of destruction that's led to the refugees crisis?
JULIAN ASSANGE
Publisher WikiLeaks
I mean, there's a number of cables that speak about it, in the Syrian chapter. But, that particular cable, it is really concerning. I mean, it --
You know, often cables are written in such a way where you have to read between the lines, or look at what is not said.
In this particular cable, it's just all hanging out.
A whole lot of Machiavellian schemes to overthrow the Syrian government.
7:53
AFSHIN RATTANSI
GoingUndergroundRT
And it's pre-dating any of the human rights demonstrations against the Assad government?
JULIAN ASSANGE
Publisher WikiLeaks
It pre-dates the demonstrations in 2011.
AFSHIN RATTANSI
GoingUndergroundRT
How do you think, despite -- as the US book says -- the US laid the foundation for sectarianism in places like Syria, causing bloodshed on a national scale.
JULIAN ASSANGE
Publisher WikiLeaks
What's happened in Syria is really very serious.
I mean, there's hundreds and thousands of people now dead in Syria.
8:20
AFSHIN RATTANSI
GoingUndergroundRT
But some countries manage to still succeed despite the destabilisation by all these agencies. Iran and Venezuela. Ecuador. We're in the embassy here.
How do these countries seem to be able to work their way through it, unlike the Syrian government?
8:36
JULIAN ASSANGE
Publisher WikiLeaks
Well, I mean, the Syrian government has managed to survive -- just.
I think we need to look at regional alliances.
Part of the problem in Syria is you have a number of US allies surrounding it (principally Saudi and Qatar) that are funnelling in weapons (Turkey, as well. A very serious actor.) who each have their own hegemonic ambitions in the region.
Israel also, no doubt, is.
If Syria is sufficiently destabilised, it [Israel] might be in a position where it can keep the Golan Heights forever, or even advance that territory.
So, you've got a number of players around Syria that are looking to bite off pieces.
Whereas in Latin America -- if you look at Ecuador, for example -- it has relatively supportive states around it. Same with Venezuela. Relatively supportive states.
And this book documents, for instance, the United States going to Brazil, and saying: we want to rein in Venezuela; we want to isolate Venezuela; we think Venezuela's a problem for the region. And Brazil's saying, no: our relationship with Venezuela's important; it's an important regional player; we don't want to compromise that relationship by doing anything against Venezuela.
9:53
AFSHIN RATTANSI
GoingUndergroundRT
OK, the book details genocidal US policy right around the world, from Latin America to Asia, all in the name of liberalism, which you write about in your introduction.
How does all the torture and killing work, with the free market and the use of free markets?
10:10
JULIAN ASSANGE
Publisher WikiLeaks
This interplay between big American companies and the State Department, and the US military, is something that's all documented in the cables.
I mean, you can see -- all over the world -- US embassies acting as a sales agent for Boeing, for Monsanto; lobbying to adjust European law; even to create sanctions or other penalties, in relation to Europe, for not accepting genetically modified organisms (GMOs), or forcing labelling.
10:41
AFSHIN RATTANSI
GoingUndergroundRT
Now, we know that, maybe within a few miles of this embassy, secret negotiations on TTIP, the free trade agreement, are going on. You've issued a reward for information.
So, one shouldn't see TTIP in isolation to all the killing at torture that's mentioned in the book?
11:00
JULIAN ASSANGE
Publisher WikiLeaks
The US empire -- and it is correct to use that word -- is not an empire in the classical sense. It's not like the Roman Empire. It's a little bit like the British Empire, but different.
It's a modern empire. You wouldn't expect an empire in a modern age to look like an old empire.
Now, there's a continental expansion of the United States. Yes, it has grabbed other territories like Hawaii and, effectively, Puerto Rico, and Alaska.
But the predominant form the US empire has, is an empire of US bases -- now more than fourteen hundred (1,400) US military bases in over a hundred and twenty (120) countries dotted around the world -- and an empire of trade.
And it uses these mechanisms of its embassies, of its military bases, of its presence in organisations like the UN [United Nations] and IMF [International Monetary Fund], in order to secure advantageous deals and structures for the largest American companies.
[12:01]
Interestingly, not for the average American worker.
So, all you hear about is 'American interests'.
It's not the interests of the average American that are being pursued.
Of course, it's the interests of the companies that are close enough to the government to be able to have their interests reflected in what US ambassadors do around the world.
12:21
[music]
AFSHIN RATTANSI
GoingUndergroundRT
In Part 2 of GoingUnderground
JULIAN ASSANGE
Publisher WikiLeaks
Corbyn. I have thought a lot about this: whether he can survive in a Labour Leadership position.
AFSHIN RATTANSI
GoingUndergroundRT
We speak to JULIAN ASSANGE about the 'special relationship' and when he's going to be free.
[music]
AFSHIN RATTANSI
GoingUndergroundRT
In Part 2 of our interview with JULIAN ASSANGE, we investigate our liberal values, crushed dissent, and whether the WIKILEAKS founder will ever be able to leave the Ecuadorian embassy and regain his freedom.
AFSHIN RATTANSI
GoingUndergroundRT
And hand-in-hand with the banning of information that you were talking about earlier, the WIKILEAKS fatwa which, I think is mentioned in the book, there's a mass subversion of information using the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), USAID -- they have lots of different non-military (at least on the surface) sounding organisations that are massaging the sovereignty, as it were.
13:23
JULIAN ASSANGE
Publisher WikiLeaks
Well, yeah.
One of the most important documents we've ever published is the Unconventional Warfare Manual [here].
And, what is unconventional warfare?
So, unconventional warfare is warfare performed through the use of surrogate forces to overthrow a government. That's essentially to infiltrate, train, and overthrow. It's what happened, for example, in Afghanistan. It's what happened in Nicaragua.
Now, that manual, which I mention in this book [here], it is active policy now in the united states.
It's active military doctrine and it describes that when the United States needs to do something, it pulls together the various arms of American power.
Yes, those include the military arm, which we're very familiar with.
The also include the intelligence arm, the financial arm, the commercial arm, its informational power, and it's diplomatic power.
They bring all of these together in order to push on a country -- in order to get it do do what the US government wants it to do -- to work in tandem.
Under financial power, yes, the IMF is explicitly listed.
Under power connected to the State Department, USAID is explicitly listed.
What I found very interesting about this convergence of different forms of American power brought together to achieve an end result is that there's different theories of government: different theories of how the United States works.
So, one theory is you have various rivalrous agencies, and rivalrous people within agencies, and rivalrous corporations; and, so, it's actually very hard to get anything done.
And there's no doubt there are cases in the past where that has been true. It's hard to get this mass together, but the formal policy - and it comes together in practice - is, actually, to pull together all these different agencies, which might seem like they're working different beats, and push them together in a sort of pincer formation on a country to achieve a result.
15:41
AFSHIN RATTANSI
GoingUndergroundRT
What President Obama says that -- I mean, he obviously doesn't admit that holistic approach of all these different government agencies -- but, he does say (and he said it in his speech as regards Russia and Ukraine), that for all the criticisms of the United States and the European Union, there is the differences; they don't crush dissent.
Is President Obama lying?
16:09
JULIAN ASSANGE
Publisher WikiLeaks
Well, Obama is definitely lying, as it varies across the European Union.
But, Obama has prosecuted more whistleblowers, under the Espionage Act [1917], than all previous presidents combined --
16:21
AFSHIN RATTANSI
GoingUndergroundRT
He probably wouldn't say it's dissent. He'd probably say it was leaking of secrets.
JULIAN ASSANGE
Publisher WikiLeaks
-- in fact, more than twice as many.
Now, of course, he says that that's espionage.
But there's no allegation that any of these people have given their secrets to a foreign government or were working with a foreign government.
The allegations are they were working with the media.
16:42
AFSHIN RATTANSI
GoingUndergroundRT
Israel is pretty central. You mentioned Israel there.
Do you think -- do you think de-nuclearising, as it were, ending the nuclear weapons program of Israel is really the only way forward, because the chapter in the book about Israel seems to suggest US duplicity involving Israel as regards Palestinians will always be a roadblock to peace.
17:07
JULIAN ASSANGE
Publisher WikiLeaks
It's very serious, the duplicity of the US in relation to Israel and protection of Israel again and again through its veto power at the UN.
It's one of these situations where it is only really the United States who has an ability to affect Israel and, so, the Palestinians feel that they have to deal with the United States because no-one else has the ability to affect Israel, because the US keeps exercising its veto.
Now, we've seen some interesting and clever moves by Palestine around that. For example, pulling in the ICC [International Criminal Court].
The ICC has been kind of an emasculated organisation. Every single prosecution it's had is of an African and no-one else.
We detail -- I think, in some ways, in one of the most interesting chapters in the book, because it looks at not a country or a region (which all the other chapters do), it looks at an international institution -- the ICC -- and how the US has tried to subvert the ICC by signing secret agreements around the world to prevent extradition of its soldiers for war crimes and other violations.
Palestine now becoming part of the ICC, and people monitoring that process, it is putting pressure on Israel; and you'll see a number of the cables mention extreme Israeli concern at the prospect that Palestine might join the ICC. It now has joined the ICC.
18:40
AFSHIN RATTANSI
GoingUndergroundRT
So, do you think that the tide is (turning away from your personal circumstances for a sec), or whether their deployment of missiles -- the United States now, on the borders of China, borders of Russia.
Do you think that there's a recognition there that they're going too far: that the global south -- Russia, China, together -- could now start to mount attempted neutralising [of] American power, that has gone too far now?
19:06
JULIAN ASSANGE
Publisher WikiLeaks
It's very hard to say.
If you look at it in raw terms, post WWII, the US had fifty percent (50%) of global GDP.
And, as a result, it was able to set up post-war multilateral institutions with significant control, because it set them up and rules that were skewed to its favour.
US GDP is now down below forty percent (40%) of global GDP.
It's military spending, which traditionally has been over fifty (50%) is now down to about forty (40%).
It's intelligence expenditure is still up past sixty (60%).
So, in some ways, it is more than a military superpower: it is an intelligence superpower, if you look at the relative spends of the United States compared to others.
Now, that said, there is increasing integration occurring between states the US does not control -- for example, along the Silk Road [here] -- but I wouldn't discount the effect of the United States.
There's no country that has anything like fourteen hundred (1,400) military bases spread over a hundred and twenty (120) countries around the world.
No-one is in anywhere near that.
20:22
AFSHIN RATTANSI
GoingUndergroundRT
There's some fascinating chapters in the book about how you document dissent in Japan and South Korea being crushed by US hegemonic power.
Of course, all the talk here is of Jeremy Corbyn, who obviously dissents from US hegemonic power.
Do you think the United States will be able to crush his Labour leadership, let alone his British premiership, if he is elected prime minister.
20:49
JULIAN ASSANGE
Publisher WikiLeaks
Well, it looks like he's going to win the Labour Leadership election.
Now, Corbyn's an interesting fellow.
I had experience with him in 2011.
He protested in relation to my treatment in the UK Parliament, saying it was unnatural (in terms of natural justice), for someone to be extradited without charge -- they should at least be charged in the United Kingdom -- and he proposed amendments (which eventually were accepted in 2014) to ban that practice in future.
Corbyn -- I have thought a lot about this -- whether he can survive in a Labour leadership position, taking his historically quite critical line in relation to the UK-US relationship.
And, to give you an example of just how different that is, a quote from a cable sent by the American Ambassador to Washington DC, after meeting William Hague, who was the Foreign Minister in this government.
21:55
AFSHIN RATTANSI
GoingUndergroundRT
Lord Hague, probably now, as we been [ ... ]
JULIAN ASSANGE
Publisher WikiLeaks
Oh, yeah, he's still an important person in the Parliament.
Hague said he -- David Cameron (that's the Prime Minister) -- and George Osborne (the Treasurer), were:
"... children of Thatcher and staunch Atlantisists."
"America is the essential country."
"Hague said whoever enters 10 Downing Street as the prime minister, soon learns of the essential nature of the relationship with America."
"He added, "we want a pro-American regime. We need it. The world needs it.""
We might go, he's just telling the Americans what they want to hear, but look at the degree of language. I mean, they're not complete fools, they expect payback on these promises, and Corbyn is not speaking like this. And there is a real -- I think there's a real risk to his leadership long-term.
Interesting question: if Corbyn could not be kicked out, to political destabilisation or leaks to the media of intelligence intercepts, his long-term safety -- if he kept on a line of saying withdraw UK from NATO -- he has already weakened that line, saying: well, it's not the focus now, we need to talk about, you know, what is the role of NATO, and so on. Well, fair enough.
But, if he maintained a very aggressive line of saying:
- we must remove UK from NATO;
I would be quite concerned about the risks that he would be intentionally politically destabilised by the United States, or something worse, because we're talking about the relationships between great powers. Between -- You know, about the UK's nuclear weapons system, which forms part -- effectively, part of the American empire.
The US has bases here. It's largest interception base is up at Menwith Hill at Yorkshire. So there's six thousand (6,000) NSA (National Security Agency) personnel working in it, directly.
It's quite hard to undo that relationship. I think -- my suspicion is that Corbyn will realise that, if he hasn't already, and will play it smart.
NATO will be off the agenda. Maybe fine-tuning UK's role in NATO. And Trident will be off the agenda.
I suspect that it's not possible to win an election in the UK unless that is done.
But, then again, no-one thought that it would be possible for him to be Labour leader at all.
24:46
AFSHIN RATTANSI
GoingUndergroundRT
And, finally, your safety.
I mean, when do you think you and Chelsea Manning, Edward Snowden, will again regain your right to freedom of movement.
Well, Chelsea Manning has an appeal coming up later this year, or early next year.
But she was sentenced to thirty-five (35) years in prison. That's longer -- for allegedly disclosing information to the media -- that's longer than any person who committed war crimes in Iraq, including those who raped and murdered a whole family.
That's going to take significant political pressure; change in the politics in the United States before say --
AFSHIN RATTANSI
GoingUndergroundRT
[interjects]
And for you and Edward Snowden?
25:28
JULIAN ASSANGE
Publisher WikiLeaks
-- before, say, Chelsea Manning is pardoned.
Edward Snowden?
It is not safe for Edward Snowden to be in the United States, or any of the allies of the United States, I believe until the National Security Agency is wound up.
That is a core part of the intelligence community. The core part has about one hundred thousand (100,000) in Washington DC.
Five (5) million people overall in terms of security clearances.
But the inner core, about one hundred thousand (100,000) people.
That's a very influential and powerful lobby that simply will not accept a pardoning of Edward Snowden. Not accept it at all.
In terms of my particular case, well the pending prosecution is ongoing.
They have five charges:
(1) espionage;
(2) conspiracy to commit espionage;
(3) computer fraud & abuse;
(4) conversion [here] ; and
(5) general conspiracy.
Decades, theoretically, in prison. But it's a matter of politics.
It's hard for them to have a big case, during the run-up into the election. I don't think, probably, that's something that people want, although you never know, with Hillary [Clinton].
If it's Hillary versus Trump, and Trump's playing the national security trump card, maybe there is enough incentive then to create a very big case.
But what is clear is it's politically impossible to drop it. It's just the State Department, Pentagon and so on, are simply such big lobbies in DC that it's not possible for the White House, which can be subverted by any of these big groups in terms of leaking their correspondences and policies to the press and so on, and, ultimately, literally overthrow them if push really came to shove with the White House and CIA.
It's not possible for them to drop it under such circumstances.
27:27
AFSHIN RATTANSI
GoingUndergroundRT
JULIAN ASSANGE, thank you.
JULIAN ASSANGE
Publisher WikiLeaks
Thank you.
27:30
[music | announcement]
--- end ---
---------------------- ꕤ ----------------------
Julian Assange
Australian Journalist
FAQ & Support
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Collateral Murder
WikiLeaks Video
Iraq
Sunshine Press
Uploaded: 3 Apr 2010
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SEE ALSO
Decoding the Current War in Syria: The Wikileaks Files
http://www.globalresearch.ca/decoding-the-current-war-in-syria-the-wikileaks-files/5473909
LINKS
WikiLeaks
http://www.thisdayinWIKILEAKS.org/2015/05/7-may-2015.html
USAID
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Agency_for_International_Development
US & UK Relationship
http://www.cafebabel.co.uk/euromyths/article/WIKILEAKS-and-the-not-so-special-relationship-uk-us.html
Menwith Hill, Yorkshire
http://www.yorkshirecnd.org.uk/campaigns/menwith-hill/
BOOK
http://www.versobooks.com/books/1931-the-wikileaks-files
Assange
Transnational Security Elite,
Carving Up the World Using Your Tax Money
London
OCT8 Antiwar Mass Assembly (2011)
Link | here
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