Andrew Wilkie (TAS) - Warns Parliament: Australia - Police State

ꕤ Andrew Wilkie Warns Parliament Australia - Police State 10 September 2015 Source:  YouTube LINK  |  Wilkie Site OFFICIAL VERSION - LINK PDF| HERE MY TRANSCRIPT [For quotation purposes, confirm audio or official version] ** NOTE ** Square brackets signify my edit, and the headings in the list of ten are headings I have devised re each of the points made by Wilkie (rather than spoken/dictated as headings by Wilkie).   Andrew Wilkie Warns Parliament Australia - Police State https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoIXn066vj4&feature=youtu.be Andrew Wilkie Member for Denison, TAS Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Anything that diminishes the protection for the environment is obviously wrong and to be resisted, Deputy Speaker. So, too, to deny some Australian citizens the right to access all aspects of the legal system — no matter what the matter is — or to deny some Australian citizens the right to judicial view, in particular, is self-evidently wrong. In fact, anything that diminishes the protection of the environment —  anything that diminishes the rights of our citizens — is so self-evidently wrong that it's quite remarkable that it's come before the parliament and that we're even needing to debate the rights and wrongs of these issues. It is also wrong for us to look at these issues in isolation, because, Deputy Speaker, I suggest we need to take a step back at this point and have a look at the direction our country is going in a whole range of ways and, in particular, the direction we are going about the rights of our citizens and the way in which the rights of our citizens and our groups, be it environmental groups or any other groups, are slowly being diminished, in an incremental way; because, when you take a step back and you look at a whole range of decisions that have been made by this and previous governments, including the bill that's before parliament today, that would deny some Australians to access all aspects of the legal system, you can draw a conclusion that Australia has reached the stage of being almost in a pre police-state, where the rights of citizens have been diminished so far, where the power of the state has increased so much, that we are in, what I'll characterise as, a pre police-state. Deputy Speaker, when I turned my mind to this issue today and to preparing this speech, it took me very little time to quickly come up with some ten (10) characteristics of a pre police-state which exists in Australia right now, and I will quickly rattle through them, if you don't mind, Deputy Speaker. No. 1 - Australia Police State Characteristic [MASS SURVEILLANCE] For a start, the way all members of a community are now monitored by the state, on account of mandatory metadata retention, which passed this parliament some time ago, is already in law and will be implemented from next month. The community needs to understand that from next month, every phone call they make, every website they visit, every location signal sent from their mobile phone or other mobile device — electronic device — will be recorded by law, and can be accessed by the security services without warrant. This is something that has been rejected by many other developed countries. The scale of the mandatory metadata retention, which is being implemented in this country from next month, is almost unprecedented around the world in any developed country or democracy. No. 2 - Australia Police State Characteristic [MANIPULATION OF PRESS / MEDIA] Another characteristic of a pre police-state:  the way the media is being manipulated in this country. We have seen:  the way funding for independent broadcasters, the ABC and the SBS have been reduced; We have seen:  the way government ministers have bullied the ABC, bullied the Fairfax papers, have bullied some of the News Limited papers, at least the tabloids; We have seen:  the way, in this country, the Australian spreadsheet [ie broadsheet / newspaper format] has now become almost like Pravda was in the Soviet Union, as the official organ of the Australian Liberal Party. Again, this is a characteristic of a pre police-state, the way the media is being used and manipulated. No. 3 - Australia Police State Characteristic [MANIPULATION OF JUDICIARY] Another characteristic of a pre police-state is the manipulation of the judiciary, and it is remarkable that the government, Deputy Speaker, sees nothing wrong — nothing wrong at all —  in the fact that a Royal Commissioner would agree to go to a party political event. No. 4 - Australia Police State Characteristic [STATE SECRECY - OPACITY - LACK OF TRANSPARENCY] Another characteristic of a pre police-state, Deputy Speaker, is the secrecy that we see with this government and the ludicrous level of secrecy that surrounds our response to irregular immigration, and the development of this term,'on water operations', whatever that is. All we know is that it is some sort of term that means, we're not going to tell you what's going on, even it is being paid for by you and even if it is being done in your name, even if is of very great humanitarian significance. No. 5 - Australia Police State Characteristic [NO EVIDENCE REQUIRED FOR ARRESTS - MERE SUSPICION OF 'TERRORISM'] Another characteristic of a pre police-state:  the fact that in law, in this country now, you can be arrested on suspicion, in the absence of any hard evidence, when it comes to terrorism. This, of course, is contained in one of the approximately [seventy (70)] separate pieces of legislation that have passed the Australian parliaments since 9/11 [ie 2001]. The fact that in Australia you can be arrested, in the absence of hard evidence, just on suspicion of thinking that you are going to do something in the future. No. 6 - Australia Police State Characteristic [DETENTION WITHOUT TRIAL / INDEFINITE DETENTION] Another characteristic of a pre police-state — something that we see in Australia — is the fact that, in Australia, some people can be incarcerated indefinitely without a trial, and that's exactly what we are doing to some asylum seekers who are being incarcerated seemingly indefinitely, definitely without trial, in third countries where we send them to, when we send them to Manus Island in Papua New Guinea or to the Republic of Nauru. No. 7 - Australia Police State Characteristic [CONTEMPT FOR INTERNATIONAL LAW & INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENTS] Another characteristic of a pre police-state, Deputy Speaker, is that — there's no shortage of things I can rattle off here — is the fact that this government now shows complete and utter disregard for international law and any number of international agreements, that previous governments have agreed to. For instance, this government, ignores their own statute. This government ignores the Refugee Convention; this government ignores the Convention of the Rights of the Child, and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. A healthy democracy, on that respects the rule of law, one that respects the rights of its citizens, one that respects the rights of the citizens of other countries, is a government that respects international law and international agreements. No. 8 - Australia Police State Characteristic [ELECTED REPS OF PEOPLE IN PARLIAMENT FORBIDDEN TO DEBATE & DECIDE RE IMPORTANT STATE MATTERS — EG. WAR / USE OF FORCE] Deputy Speaker, another characteristic of a pre police-state, is one in which the parliament, the elected representatives of the people, are forbidden to debate and decide on important matters of state. I mean, we had this situation yesterday where the government, in secret, decided to start bombing the sovereign state of Syria, and the matter was never allowed to be debated by the parliament, [and] was never voted on by the parliament. This makes Australia almost unique among our allies and among many developed countries:  the fact that in this country the parliament is not involved — is not allowed to be involved — in decisions about waging war. In the United States, the Congress has to debate and vote on declaring war. France, Germany, the Netherlands, their parliaments all are required by law to debate and vote on the use of force. Even in the United Kingdom, where it's not law, it's certainly convention, that the House of Commons, these days, will debate and decide on whether or not British military forces are committed to a conflict. But not in Australia.  Not in our pre police-state, where the parliament is not allowed even to have a proper debate — let alone a vote — about these sorts of matters. No. 9 - Australia Police State Characteristic [ATTACK ON DEMOCRACY / SYSTEM SAFEGUARD MECHANISMS] Deputy Speaker, another characteristic of a pre police-state we see in this country these days is the way our safeguard mechanisms are disregarded, or even bullied, if they get in the government's way. We saw the terrible treatment of the Human Rights Commissioner [Prof Gillian Triggs] when she spoke on the issue of asylum seekers. A good government, in a healthy democracy, would have listened to the Human Rights Commissioner, would have listened very carefully and would have been very careful to take the Human Rights Commissioner's advice and be seen to take that advice, but, instead, what we saw was a conga line of ministers all lining up to have a go at her, and to bully her. That is how an autocratic regime acts.  It is not how a democratically elected government would act.  It's not how our government should act.  It was a shame on this government the way it treated the Human Rights Commissioner. No. 10 - Australia Police State Characteristic [SECURITY AGENCIES - EXCEED LAWFUL POWERS] Another characteristic of a pre police-state, Deputy Speaker, is when security agencies start acting beyond their lawful powers. Although it was eventually halted, in the face of overwhelming public concern and protest, the fact that the  Australian Border Force (ABF) thought it was OK to conduct an operation on the streets of Melbourne, a few weeks ago now, where it would have acted unlawfully—         [ INTERJECTION  - male voice ]         "You know that's not right.  Stop telling lies." —by stopping people on the street to check their papers, so to speak, something that is not allowed in the Act:  beyond their legal power. But was there any legal condemnation from this government over this?  Was anyone sacked?  Was anyone held to account?  No. All we heard from the relevant minister, in interview after interview, were attempts to try and downplay the matter and say that:  ah, look, it wasn't that big a deal and it was just a badly worded press release. Well, no, it wasn't a badly worded press release.  It was worded exactly the way the Australian border force had intended for it to be worded.  A press release that went to the Minister's office beforehand — we're not sure exactly how many times — it seems to have been at least twice, perhaps three times, perhaps more. Now, Deputy Speaker, that's a long and pretty painful list to go through. But if I could come up with ten (10) characteristics of a police state and jot them down in a matter of minutes this morning, and I'm sure I could add to that with any number of other ways in which our democracy is diminished right now, what does it say about our country? And it puts this bill in quite a different light. If we were a healthy democracy without that list of ten (10) characteristics of a police state, if this bill just came in fresh and there was nothing else going on around us, maybe we would respond to it differently. I don't think we would, actually. I don't think we would, actually, Deputy Speaker, because I think — well, I know it's obviously — it's self-evident we shouldn't diminish the protections for the environment; it's self-evident that we shouldn't deny some members of the community (or some groups within the community) the right to access all aspects of our legal system, including judicial review. So it's a serious matter in its own right in this bill that's before the parliament.  But when you put it in the context of all of the other things that have gone on in recent years in this country, you start to understand that this country, not only is going in the wrong direction, but we've gone a long way in the wrong direction. And when you look back at history, and when you look at the lessons of history, when you look at once great countries that deteriorated over time, or their democracy deteriorated over time — and some even ultimately became police states — you see that often it happened incrementally.  Often, it didn't happen with one seismic event where a dictator came to power. Sometimes, these autocratic regimes were democratically elected and over time, bit by bit, the country deteriorated:  its democracy deteriorated, it's democracy was diminished, bit by bit, and then one day the community woke up and asked: How on earth did we get here? How on earth did we allow ourselves to now be living in a country that is so bad, that is so far removed from the wonderful democracy it once was? How on earth did we allow a democratically elected government to bit by bit, incrementally, one bill at a time, take us so far away from the healthy, wonderful democracy we once had? One of the problems, Deputy Speaker is, bit by bit, things become normal.  We get used to one little bit, then there's another little bit:  another bill. I've made the point that since 9/11 [ie 2001], there's been about seventy (70) separate pieces of legislation in this country to do with our national security, even though it could be argued that our laws at the time of 9/11 in 2001, were just about right:  it was clearly as serious criminal offence to murder back then.  It still is now. There is now doubt that much of that legislation, contained in those seventy (70) or so bills, is unnecessary.  We have gone too far in that regard. We must, however, ensure that we keep our safeguards in place. And that's one of the reasons that this bill is so bad:  that we would think it OK to deny some Australians their lawful access to the [inaudible/cross-talk]. — END VIDEO / AUDIO — ---------------------- ꕤ ---------------------- Andrew Damien Wilkie b. Tamworth, NSW (54 years) appears very much a military man (formerly married to fellow army officer) Profession:  Soldier, intelligence officer Royal Military College, Duntroon (1984) University of NSW, BA Grad. Dips. Management & Defence Studies Armed forces rank:  Lieutenant Colonel Office of National Assessments (ONA) intel agency - 1999-2000 Raytheon, US defence co. Raythoen world's largest producer guided missiles ONA - again - (post 9/11 attacks) / intel agency / 2003 - resigned from ONA / (objected to Iraq invasion) Later, provided evidence to British & Australian inquiries re government involvement Iraq War published:  Axis of Deceit (2004) | here describes views on intel agencies & analysts' work history of Iraq War untruths of politicians & suppression of truth former Australian Greens member (resigned 2008) Independent member for Australian Parliament for Denison assumed office:  21 Aug 2010 source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wilkie ---------------------- ꕤ ---------------------- Australian Treaty Series 1954 No 5 Convention relating to the Status of Refugees (Geneva, 28 July 1951) http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/treaties/1954/5.html Australian Treaty Series 1991 No 4 Convention on the Rights of the Child (New York, 20 November 1989) Entry into force generally: 2 September 1990 Entry into force for Australia: 16 January 1991 http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/treaties/1991/4.html International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (New York, 16 December 1966) Entry into force generally (except Article 41): 23 March 1976 Entry into force for Australia (except Article 41): 13 November 1980 Article 41 came into force generally on 28 March 1979 and for Australia on 28 January 1993 http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/treaties/1980/23.html ---------------------- ꕤ ---------------------- Prof Gillian Triggs President Human Rights Commission Australian academic specialising in public international law Other: education:  University of Melbourne / crowned Miss University in 1966 husband:  Alan Brown, former Australian diplomat [source:  AAW] ABC - Prof Gillian Triggs http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-30/record-on-asylum-seekers-may-hurt-un-council-bid-gillian-triggs/6816498 Australian Border Force (ABF) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Border_Force ---------------------- ꕤ ---------------------- HUMOUR [CLICK image to enlarge] [CLICK image to enlarge] Closed Caption Gone Wrong ... lol OK, it's not that funny. But I thought it was rather funny at the time.   ;) Andrew Wilkie sounds really cool. I'm sure I'm on my way to developing a military fetish.  ;) Was shocked to find he's a military guy. Would have thought all the military personnel (or former military) would be really uptight pro police state types. Apparently not.  lol Like the sound of Wilkie. I'm not so much into the pro international laws & promotion of refugees' interests aspect; I'm more into the pro civil liberties and freedom from police-state aspect and pro interests of working classes, and am otherwise strongly in favour of strict immigration controls (which puts me at odds with the liberal left, humanitarians, and similar vocal others in the West). ꕤ

Transcript - Banned Audio Leak - Turkey Head of Intelligence Hakan Fiday & Turkish FM Ahmet Davutoğlu - False Flag Plot for Casus Belli in Syria

ꕤ Article SOURCE VIDEO https://youtu.be/c-1GooSDwJ8 FULL AT SOURCE http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/turkey-youtube-ban-full-transcript-leaked-syria-war-conversation-between-erdogan-officials-1442161 Turkey YouTube Ban: Full Transcript of Leaked Syria 'War' Conversation Between Erdogan Officials     Jack Moore     By Jack Moore     March 27, 2014 16:57 GMT Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's ban of YouTube occurred after a conversation was leaked between Head of Turkish Intelligence Hakan Fidan and Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu that he wanted removed from the video-sharing website. Full transcript (translated by @castizbey): Ahmet Davutoğlu: "Prime Minister said that in current conjuncture, this attack (on Suleiman Shah Tomb) must be seen as an opportunity for us." Hakan Fidan: "I'll send 4 men from Syria, if that's what it takes. I'll make up a cause of war by ordering a missile attack on Turkey; we can also prepare an attack on Suleiman Shah Tomb if necessary." Feridun Sinirlioğlu: "Our national security has become a common, cheap domestic policy outfit." Yaşar Güler: "It's a direct cause of war. I mean, what're going to do is a direct cause of war." -------- FIRST SCREEN: Ahmet Davutoğlu: I couldn't entirely understand the other thing; what exactly does our foreign ministry supposed to do? No, I'm not talking about the thing. There are other things we're supposed to do. If we decide on this, we are to notify the United Nations, the Istanbul Consulate of the Syrian regime, right? Feridun Sinirlioğlu: But if we decide on an operation in there, it should create a shocking effect. I mean, if we are going to do so. I don't know what we're going to do, but regardless of what we decide, I don't think it'd be appropriate to notify anyone beforehand. Ahmet Davutoğlu: OK, but we're gonna have to prepare somehow. To avoid any shorts on regarding international law. I just realised when I was talking to the president (Abdullah Gül), if the Turkish tanks go in there, it means we're in there in any case, right? Yaşar Güler: It means we're in, yes. Ahmet Davutoğlu: Yeah, but there's a difference between going in with aircraft and going in with tanks... SECOND SCREEN: Yaşar Güler: Maybe we can tell the Syrian consulate general that, ISIL is currently working alongside the regime, and that place is Turkish land. We should definitely... Ahmet Davutoğlu: But we have already said that, sent them several diplomatic notes. Yaşar Güler: To Syria... Feridun Sinirlioğlu: That's right. Ahmet Davutoğlu: Yes, we've sent them countless times. Therefore, I'd like to know what our Chief of Staff's expects from our ministry. Yaşar Güler: Maybe his intent was to say that, I don't really know, he met with Mr. Fidan. Hakan Fidan: Well, he did mention that part but we didn't go into any further details. Yaşar Güler: Maybe that was what he meant... A diplomatic note to Syria? Hakan Fidan: Maybe the Foreign Ministry is assigned with coordination... THIRD SCREEN: Ahmet Davutoğlu: I mean, I could coordinate the diplomacy but civil war, the military... Feridun Sinirlioğlu: That's what I told back there. For one thing, the situation is different. An operation on ISIL has solid ground on international law. We're going to portray this is Al-Qaeda, there's no distress there if it's a matter regarding Al-Qaeda. And if it comes to defending Suleiman Shah Tomb, that's a matter of protecting our land. Yaşar Güler: We don't have any problems with that. Hakan Fidan: Second after it happens, it'll cause a great internal commotion (several bombing events is bound to happen within). The border is not under control... Feridun Sinirlioğlu:I mean, yes, the bombings are of course going to happen. But I remember our talk from 3 years ago... Yaşar Güler: Mr. Fidan should urgently receive back-up and we need to help him supply guns and ammo to rebels. We need to speak with the minister. Our Interior Minister, our Defense Minister. We need to talk about this and reach a resolution sir. Ahmet Davutoğlu: How did we get special forces into action when there was a threat in Northern Iraq? We should have done so in there, too. We should have trained those men. We should have sent men. Anyway, we can't do that, we can only do what diplomacy... Feridun Sinirlioğlu: I told you back then, for God's sake, General, you know how we managed to get those tanks in, you were there. Yaşar Güler: What, you mean our stuff? Feridun Sinirlioğlu: Yes, how do you think we've managed to rally our tanks into Iraq? How? How did we manage to get special forces, the battalions in? I was involved in that. Let me be clear, there was no government decision on that, we have managed that just with a single order. FOURTH SCREEN: Yaşar Güler: Well, I agree with you. For one thing, we're not even discussing that. But there are different things that Syria can do right now. Ahmet Davutoğlu: General, the reason we're saying no to this operation is because we know about the capacity of those men. Yaşar Güler: Look, sir, isn't MKE (Mechanical and Chemical Industry Corporation) at minister's bidding? Sir, I mean, Qatar is looking for ammo to buy in cash. Ready cash. So, why don't they just get it done? It's at Mr. Minister's command. Ahmet Davutoğlu: But there's the spot we can't act integratedly, we can't coordinate. Yaşar Güler: Then, our Prime Minister can summon both Mr. Defence Minister and Mr. Minister at the same time. Then he can directly talk to them. Ahmet Davutoğlu: We, Mr. Siniroğlu and I, have literally begged Mr. Prime Minster for a private meeting, we said that things were not looking so bright. FIFTH SCREEN: Yaşar Güler: Also, it doesn't have to be a crowded meeting. Yourself [Foreign Minister], Mr. Defence Minister, Mr. Interior Minister and our Chief of Staff, the four of you are enough. There's no need for a crowd. Because, sir, the main need there is guns and ammo. Not even guns, mainly ammo. We've just talked about this, sir. Let's say we're building an army down there, 1000 strong. If we get them into that war without previously storing a minimum of 6-months' worth of ammo, these men will return to us after two months. Ahmet Davutoğlu: They're back already. Yaşar Güler: They'll return to us, sir. Ahmet Davutoğlu: They've came back from... What was it? Çobanbey. Yaşar Güler: Yes, indeed, sir. This matter can't be just a burden on Mr. Fidan's shoulders as it is now. It's unacceptable. I mean, we can't understand this. Why? SIXTH SCREEN: Ahmet Davutoğlu: That evening we'd reached a resolution. And I thought that things were taking a turn for the good. Our... Feridun Sinirlioğlu: We issued the MGK (National Security Council) resolution the day after. Then we talked with the general... Ahmet Davutoğlu: And the other forces really do a good follow up on this weakness of ours. You say that you're going to capture this place, and that men being there constitutes a risk factor. You pull them back. You capture the place. You reinforce it and send in your troops again. Yaşar Güler: Exactly, sir. You're absolutely right. Ahmet Davutoğlu: Right? That's how I interpret it. But after the evacuation, this is not a military necessity. It's a whole other thing. SEVENTH SCREEN Feridun Siniroğlu: There are some serious shifts in global and regional geopolitics. It now can spread to other places. You said it yourself today, and others agreed... We're headed to a different game now. We should be able to see those. That ISIL and all that jazz, all those organisations are extremely open to manipulation. Having a region made up of organisations of similar nature will constitute a vital security risk for us. And when we first went into Northern Iraq, there was always the risk of PKK blowing up the place. If we thoroughly consider the risks and substantiate... As the general just said... Yaşar Güler: Sir, when you were inside a moment ago, we were discussing just that. Openly. I mean, armed forces are a "tool" necessary for you in every turn. Ahmet Davutoğlu: Of course. I always tell the Prime Minister, in your absence, the same thing in academic jargon, you can't stay in those lands without hard power. Without hard power, there can be no soft power. EIGTH SCREEN Yaşar Güler: Sir. Feridun Sinirlioğlu: The national security has been politicised. I don't remember anything like this in Turkish political history. It has become a matter of domestic policy. All talks we've done on defending our lands, our border security, our sovereign lands in there, they've all become a common, cheap domestic policy outfit. Yaşar Güler: Exactly. Feridun Siniroğlu: That has never happened before. Unfortunately but... Yaşar Güler: I mean, do even one of the opposition parties support you in such a high point of national security? Sir, is this a justifiable sense of national security? Feridun Sinirlioğlu: I don't even remember such a period. NINTH SCREEN: Yaşar Güler: In what matter can we be unified, if not a matter of national security of such importance? None. Ahmet Davutoğlu: The year 2012, we didn't do it 2011. If only we'd took serious action back then, even in the summer of 2012. Feridun Sinirlioğlu: They were at their lowest back in 2012. Ahmet Davutoğlu: Internally, they were just like Libya. Who comes in and goes from power is not of any importance to us. But some things... Yaşar Güler: Sir, to avoid any confusion, our need in 2011 was guns and ammo. In 2012, 2013 and today also. We're in the exact same point. We absolutely need to find this and secure that place. Ahmet Davutoğlu: Guns and ammo are not a big need for that place. Because we couldn't get the human factor in order... VIDEO https://youtu.be/c-1GooSDwJ8 FULL AT SOURCE http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/turkey-youtube-ban-full-transcript-leaked-syria-war-conversation-between-erdogan-officials-1442161 ---------------------- ꕤ ---------------------- COMMENT It's taken me this long to discover this wonderful audio.  lol Wow, who got this?  How cool. ꕤ

Transcript - Audio - JULIAN ASSANGE Interview By Kostas Ephemera, The Press Project

ꕤ Transcript SOURCE http://www.thepressproject.gr/podcast/final_assange.mp3 TRANSCRIPT [for quotations, confirm audio] INTERVIEW JULIAN ASSANGE, WIKILEAKS INTERVIEWED BY: Kostas Ephemera The Press Project Podcast On:  Monday, 20th October 2015 AUDIO SOURCE http://www.thepressproject.gr/podcast/final_assange.mp3 Hi, I'm  Kostas Ephemera from the Press Project, and I'm speaking to you from the Embassy of Ecuador. I'm here with Julian Assange, the founder of WikiLeaks, and he's agreed to give us some answers for the Greek audience. The first question is:  through the work of WikiLeaks & people like Edward Snowden, people now know that the system is corrupted.  Although we've had movements like the Indignados and Occupy Wall Street, they don't seem to last.  Why is that? Julian Assange, WikiLeaks The visible, apparent failure of Occupy Wall Street to produce a clear result has discouraged people, at least in the West, from engaging in large, mass gatherings. However, a great many lessons and networks did emerge from Occupy Wall Street and have continued on in other areas. More generally, the problem of mankind has always been its lack of understanding about how the world actually works, and the first task of human beings is to educate themselves and each other.  That is what has led to all the advances that mankind has achieved. Further advances in relation to how to restructure society or how to produce better institutions can only occur as a result of: (a) new information which further reveals how modern human institutions actually behave; and (b) the conveyance of that information into people's heads, in an accurate manner. The problem of (a) is the problem of secrecy.  The problem of (b) is the problem of media accuracy. Kostas Ephemera, The Press Project OK, you spoke of the media.  When you started WikiLeaks, you collaborated with some of the biggest international media, but after a while they backed off.  Why? Julian Assange, WikiLeaks Well, all institutions eventually become defined by their own quest for power, regardless of how they start. Large media organisations have been around for a long time and are powerful and, so, their management and ownership class, has learnt how to exploit that power by doing favours for other power groups that are around them, or defending their own social class or their shareholders directly. The only exception is when the organisation is small, or where it has an ideological leader that has firm control over the organisation's destiny, or, perhaps, where its business model is populist and directly relies on its readers. 2:56 As a result of our publications, we have contracts with more than a hundred and ten (110) different media organisations around the world, and in a number of different publishing projects, we've given all those hundred and ten (110) media organisations exactly the same material and, so, we're able to compare results. And we can see the geopolitical biases, cultural biases, the political interference from owners, the political interference from the management class, and redaction and censorship, for political purposes or because of fears of legal costs, or because of cultural sensitivities. For example, The Guardian newspaper, El Pais, Le Monde & The New York Times, extensively redacted material in the diplomatic cables publication, for reasons other than protecting people from retribution, whereas The Hindu newspaper (which is the highest quality English newspaper in India), only redacted two cables. 4:07 Kostas Ephemera, The Press Project *** [???]  the dictum "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear" works, after all, for the system. Julian Assange, WikiLeaks First of all, the national security state is very powerful. In the United States, the  Defence Department alone feeds ten percent (10%) of the US population in terms of its salaries and direct contracts. That ten percent (10%) of the population has a social group on its periphery.  It's people they are related to.  For example, they have good friends, business partners.  It maybe extends to thirty (30%) or forty (40%) percent of the entire US population. Media proprietors tend to have many business interests and, so, those business interests intersect with the national security state. So there has been suppression of the story, first of all. Secondly, it is a complex story about spy agencies and it involves the interception of nearly the entire world. It's not easy for people to imagine such a thing and still believe in it. This interception is a lot like the concept of god:  it is invisible; intangible; knows what you're doing; knows what everyone is doing; it seems that one has to take it on faith. The fact is, strangely, mass surveillance is the first god in that respect, that has been proven to exist, that even atheists can believe in. 5:53 But-- atheists can say they believe in, but, really, most people don't believe in things they haven't directly seen themselves, because most people don't see direct -- they don't see the National Security Agency or GCHQ spies under their bed -- they don't understand the danger. 6:17 But I'm pleased that they don't understand the danger, because if everyone understood the danger, the response wouldn't be to stop mass surveillance:  the response, by most people, would be become extremely conformist. Now, this old result of 'nothing wrong'.  So what is it? 'If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.' That encodes within it exactly the problem. People try and guess what it is that these powerful agencies might consider wrong, and they are not sure where the boundaries are, and so they adjust their own behaviour and start to self-censor.  But it's intellectually bankrupt. 7:00 In the end, even if you are a baker, not involved in any politics at all, its not simply a matter of arbitrary injustice might trip you up anyway, because of confusion and incompetence in the national security state.  But it is necessary to protect forces in society that keep society honest. For example, human rights activists, journalists, and opposition politicians. These are all involved in preventing society collapsing due to corruption or incompetence. And if those elements can't operate, then society will decay. 7:46 And it will even affect 'the baker' when society does decay. So it's not just about you. It is about this professional class of people who are involved in trying to holding government to account. If they can't hold government to account, government will go bad. Kostas Ephemera, The Press Project Oh, yeah. Lately, governments are becoming more aggressive, while their people find it harder to control them. Are conspiracy theorists not wild enough anymore? 8:11 Julian Assange, WikiLeaks The US government is prosecuting me for conspiracy to commit espionage and general conspiracy. And the government has conspiracy theories about the people, and even laws called 'conspiracy'. It is interesting if you look at some conspiracy.  You know, some unfounded paranoid conspiracy theories, spread around by people about the capacities of the National Security Agency and some other national spying services, they were not paranoid about. 8:46 I knew that at that time, and we know even more now. But the bigger concern is where all of that is going. I like to joke that the only thing that has saved mankind is bureaucracy, corruption and incompetence, because massive spy agencies like the National Security Agency that are intercepting nearly all the world's electronic communication, of nearly every person, would completely dominate the Earth if they were not corrupt, if they were not bureaucratic, and if they were not incompetent. But, fortunately, secrecy breeds incompetence and corruption, and these are very large secret organisations, so they are also very corrupt ones -- corrupt and incompetent. The problem is that the commercial sector like Google and Facebook are not corrupt or incompetent, as traditionally defined. They are in a highly competitive commercial market and so they have become extremely efficient at collecting information, and the security agencies then simply stick their fangs into the big corporate players and suck the information out from there. Kostas Ephemera, The Press Project Let me ask you something different. Greece, now, has a left-wing government with very friendly relationships with Ecuador and with *** [???] How would you like to ask Greece for political asylum? 10:08 Julian Assange, WikiLeaks I would be very interested to hear of such an offer from Greece, as we know there's a lot of support from the Greek population, and it would be a legally and politically important gesture here in Europe. It's an interesting question [whether] the true nature of Greek power permits such an action or not. Kostas Ephemera, The Press Project Why do you think Greek government is powerless to offer you asylum? 10:33 Julian Assange, WikiLeaks If I had been Cyprus, what would I have done in this conflict with the troika? I can see that there's different arguments for going different ways, but what I would have found most interesting would be to use the conflict to create an intense unity within Greece and, provided you have control over the police, the army and the law, and you have a healthy population and no natural disasters, you can do a lot. But there is really that question. And you effectively create a war-time footing, which has effectively been a problem like war for Greece, and Greece has survived much harsher circumstances in war, so there's no reason to believe it couldn't survive a conflict of that type and, in fact, a number of good things might come out of that conflict -- but only if you have control of the police and the army.  And, I think, the reality is that Syriza did not have full control over those three services, so that was not an option. 11:42 Kostas Ephemera, The Press Project In Greece, we have suffered and continue to suffer the results of austerity. Does the TTIP mean such kind of austerity for the whole of Europe? Julian Assange, WikiLeaks TTIP is the US-EU portion of a much grander project. That grand project [is] the three t'd agreements:  TTIP, TISA, and TPP. It's a project to create a new grand enclosure, a modern form perhaps analogous to the partition of Africa or the construction of the European Union -- a new economic and legal regime that will incorporate fifty-two (52) nations -- 1.6 billion people -- and, most importantly, two-thirds of global GDP. It has been constructed politically by playing the China card. So whenever something that radical and that large occurs, it's because it has the backing of several powerful forces. In this case, it has the backing of the major US multinationals, who have been always trying to achieve agreements like this. But it has also managed to get the backing of the US national security class, who view it as a strategic way of isolating China, India and Russia. 13:07 By playing that China card, they've also scared much of the establishment in Western Europe to coming into the system, and a lot of the South-East Asian countries like Australia. It is the most radical construction of an international regime since the construction of Europe [ie the European Union], and it cements once and for all, international and neoliberalism [interests?] into those fifty-two (52) countries, in a binding international treaty which is exceedingly difficult to withdraw from -- much more difficult than Greece withdrawing from Europe [ie the European Union]. 13:45 It covers nearly every aspect of the economy:  transportation, all services -- and services make up about seventy-five percent (75%) of the European economy, so that means all internet services, banking services, consulting engineers and accountants.  In fact, it covers everything that you can't drop on your foot. [Laughter] 14:10 It arises -- let's go back to World War II. After World War II, the US had fifty percent (50%) of the global GDP and it started to construct some international institutions to deal with that and the  Bretton Woods system, the WTO [World Trade Organisation] and, eventually the WTO became an institution with its own goals to expand, and it included India, Brazil, Russia and China. And the WTO became too democratised for the United States and there was several rounds of negotiation in the WTO in the 2000s, called the Doha Rounds, to negotiate some mutual lowering -- lower of tariffs and other mechanisms -- and the the US didn't like where things were going.  So it effectively created a negotiation outside the WTO with its allies that it could push around, and the result is those T-3 agreements. So, as negotiations originally started in Doha show, [the US] set up this legal and trading system covering two-thirds of global GDP.  So its multinationals get what [they] want and, also, to isolate China. 15:35 To my mind, the single most significant issue is that it locks in, for at least decades, the US model of global multinational-led neoliberalism -- this radical new form of international neoliberalism -- which means that if Greece elects a different government, or Syriza wants to go a different way, it can't.  It's too late.  There's clauses in the treaty, such as if the government tries to introduce new legislation it will be penalised. 16:25 It may even be seriously anti-economic. It does introduce the establishment of a great many new monopolies for the US pharmaceutical and copyright industries, which is anti-economic. But just having such an invasive level of regulation for ninety-seven percent (97%) of industry in an international trade agreement suggests that it will calcify around economic activity. 17:01 It's very hard to change this international agreement, and as industry changes and new inventions come onto the scene, and there's new ways of working and new ways of trading, countries which have signed up to this treaty system will be bogged down in this international regulation. 17:22 Kostas Ephemera, The Press Project One last question. These days, the refugee crisis is the main issue for all Euro summits, but the people who participate in those meetings are the very same leaders of countries who sold their weapons, or, actually, their armies actively contributed to the bombing of the refugee countries. What are your thoughts on that? 17:40 Julian Assange, WikiLeaks Well, it's a moral disgrace, you know, that the US is not taking Syrian refugees, and that the UK has said it will take only four thousand (4,000) per year over five (5) years. It's no surprise to anyone.  But, I mean, the situation comes about as a result of US, UK and French policy in the Middle East, together with the behaviour of US regional allies in the Middle East -- Qatar, Turkey, Jordan, Israel and Saudi Arabia. But we published cables, including in my new book -- The WikiLeaks Files -- showing that the US has been trying to overthrow the Syrian government since at least 2006 and has very serious plans to do that; was trying to make the Syrian government 'paranoid,' trying to get it to 'over-react' by instilling that fear and paranoia, trying to make it worried about coups; trying to stir up sectarian tensions between Sunni and Shi'ites; trying to make its efforts to stop the originator of ISIS -- the ISI, the Islamic State of Iraq -- to make Syria look weak, and the fact that it was trying to crack down on terrorists at all, pushed that as an example of Syrian government not having full control over its territory, to encourage the government overthrow; trying to stop foreign investment in Syria and secretly funding a variety of NGOs in Syria and, also, *** [???], using Saudi and Egypt to help push that along. There's an interesting question:  what is even in it for the US, this result? 19:37 Well, it's not about the US population as a whole, of course.  It's about the particular factions that pushed for it -- whether they have a benefit -- and, of course, the CIA perceives they have a benefit.  They create a problem and then they're given a greater budget to clean 'the problem' up. Similarly, with the contractors, arms dealers and arms manufacturers:  if there's no 'problem', then their budgets are cut.  So they create problems. It's also part of a grand area strategy to, you know, weaken Hezbollah, to allow Israel greater control over Golan Heights and maybe a buffer zone as well; to knock out a regional ally of Iran; to knock out the last Russian base, that's left outside the former Soviet Union, in Tartus; to create a path for a gas pipeline [with] a proposed path from Qatar to Saudi, up through Syria to Europe, which will compete with Russian gas. 20:39 So there's like, as I said before:  like most significant changes that happen in the world, they happen because significant forces come together, and with multiple motivations. It's what we see here. But an easily predictable disaster.  But from the US perspective there's nothing for them to dislike about having Europe flooded with Syrian refugees. In fact, we have an interesting speculation about the refugee movements.  We looked through our cables. So the speculation was this: occasionally, opponents of a country will engage in strategic depopulation -- which is, to decrease the fighting capacity of a government, you try and get people to flee the country. 21:28 In the case of Syria, it is predominantly the middle class that is fleeing, because it is the most able to flee -- it has the language skills, money, some connections, and that's the engineering class, the management class, the bureaucratic class, precisely the class that is needed to keep the government functioning, and encouraging it to flee Syria -- for example, Germany saying that they will accept any refugees and by Turkey taking nearly two (2) million refugees, it does significantly weaken the Syrian government. 22:09 So we looked for other recent precedents of that. In 2007, the Iraqi government made a formal demand of Germany to stop encouraging migration from Iraq to Germany. Now, in that case clearly Germany wasn't trying to collapse the Iraqi government, but nonetheless the Iraqi government was feeling the same effect, that it was weakening its governing capacity. Sweden, in the Iraq war, is documented in the cables as making its contribution to the Iraq war, as it said to the United States, the acceptance of the Iraqi refugees was part of its contribution. So, regardless of whether there is design behind it, the forces engaged in trying to overthrow the Syrian government must be happy with the results. Kostas Ephemera, The Press Project We have the same effect of brain-drain from Greece due to the economic crisis now.  Or the brains go. Julian Assange, WikiLeaks Exactly. So, the result is to weaken. As a political asylee myself, I'm not suggesting at all that Syrians shouldn't be treated kindly as refugees. But we should understand that engaging in the situation that causes depopulation of a country does encourage its collapse. Kostas Ephemera, The Press Project Thank you very much. --- end audio --- More Article by Kostas Ephemera  (Greek)  http://www.thepressproject.gr/article/83422/Ligi-ora-me-ton-Julian-Assange  (English translation)   here 2014 US population estimated at 322,583,006 -- ref:  http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/us-population/ USA DOD Beneficiaries Therefore, 10% of that estimate total population is equal to 32,258,300.6 Americans -- ie over 32-million US citizens benefit directly from US Dept of Defence. Adding estimates of periphery associations, perhaps up to over one-third of the total US population would benefit, either directly or indirectly, from the US Dept of Defence. Troika = European Troika  /  tripartite committee led by European Commission (Eurogroup) with European Central Bank (ECB) & the International Monetary Fund (IMF) - representing the European Union (EU) in its foreign relations, particularly re common foreign policy & security policy -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_troika Syriza - a left-wing political party in Greece, originally founded in 2004 as a coalition of left-wing and radical left parties. It is the largest party in the Hellenic Parliament, with party chairman Alexis Tsipras serving as Prime Minister of Greece -- ref:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriza Bretton Woods system -- landmark system for monetary and exchange rate management established in 1944  - ref:  http://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/brettonwoodsagreement.asp ꕤ

Transcript - Julian Assange Interview - Hamish & Andy, Oct 2015

ꕤ Assange Transcript Source Hamish & Andy Audio - Oct 2015 http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/e/c/f/ecf7164bb3b333a5/Julian_Assange_Interview.mp3?c_id=9990803&expiration=1444478324&hwt=a6576deb465d02a68cbd40bd7149d0c3 JULIAN ASSANGE ꕤ  Copyright Disclaimer under section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for “fair use” for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, education and research. ---------------------- ꕤ ---------------------- TRANSCRIPT [for quotation purposes, confirm audio] Updated Assange Interview Hamish & Andy Show Podcast http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/e/c/f/ecf7164bb3b333a5/Julian_Assange_Interview.mp3?c_id=9990803&expiration=1444478324&hwt=a6576deb465d02a68cbd40bd7149d0c3 [skip intro] Hamish Blake Hamish & Andy Hello. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks G'day, this is Julian Assange here. Hamish Blake Hamish & Andy Hey, Julian, this is Hamish from the Hamish & Andy Show. Mate, thank you so much for taking the time. I'm just about to put you through to Andy. You'll just be talking to Ando. This is actually part of a segment where each of us tried to find a person that the other person would love to interview. Julian Assange WikiLeaks Uh-ha. Hamish Blake Hamish & Andy I'm brining you to Andy as the gift. Julian Assange WikiLeaks I see. I see. I've gotcha. Hamish Blake Hamish & Andy He got me Jeff Probst from Survivor. Ummm, absolutely no offence to you. I think your story's fascinating. But I've already used my interview up. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks The other one has to do the leg work. Hamish Blake Hamish & Andy Yeah. That's right. He got me Jeff. I've had a great time. Available for download [ skip ] ... But I won't chew up any more of your time. I'm going to pop you through to Andy. And best of luck. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Julian. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks G'day Andy. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Hey, thanks for taking the time. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks You're welcome. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Ummm, I'd imagine you've had a lot of in-depth political conversations with extremely informed interviewers. Ummm, I'm just letting you know that this is probably not that interview. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Rarely. Rarely. [Laughter] Andy Lee Hamish & Andy OK. Good. Good. [Laugher] But I am certainly fascinated about your story, and also obviously the new book, The WikiLeaks Files, which is out now -- which we'll cover off. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Yes. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy But I want to start, if I may, with the asylum thing and the fact that you are there in the Ecuadorian embassy. What is the set up? What is the set up, where do you live and what's the set up there? Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks So, right now, I'm in the Ecuadorian Embassy of London, in a police siege -- the longest running police siege ever -- surrounded by a hundred (100) full-time equivalent police from the British government. I've been detained (without charge in any country) in the United Kingdom, for five (5) years. And there's a series of court cases proceeding. Criminal court cases, civil court cases, in different countries: in the UK, in the United states, in Sweden, in Saudi Arabia, in Germany, in Australia, Denmark [and] Iceland. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Mmmm-mmmm. And they're the one-- --and so, I suppose that's the reason why you sought asylum. You obviously don't want to face those charges at the moment. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks I have not been charged. It's an important thing to remember. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yes, I'm sorry. They want you for questioning. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Well, there's quite a large number of cases. The serious one is the US case, where there's a pending prosecution for espionage; in relation -- you were talking the Swedish case -- in relation to the Swedish case, I have already been cleared in that quote 'preliminary investigation' unquote. The state of play now is it's still a 'preliminary investigation'. They have refused to take my statement in five (5) years. Nothing has happened in the case in five (5) years. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy So, how long do you plan to wait, if those investigations around the world and those case -- like you mentioned, the one for espionage? Did you you have a plan when you sought asylum? Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks My plan was to-- It was a very dangerous and difficult environment outside the embassy. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yep. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks And, so, yeah. There was a strategic plan, which is to-- Andy Lee Hamish & Andy [interjects] Avoid them [laughter]. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks --seek and receive asylum, both in a legal sense and in a practical sense -- and get into a country that was safer. The first part of that has been successful. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yep. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks So, I've won the asylum case. Ummm, and that then changes a little bit the legal and political character of everything else that happens, because it has been a formal founding that I have been politically persecuted by the United States. But we still now have to achieve the practical component. The UK's in violation of international law. But so was the Iraq war, right? Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yes Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks So, it's a bit hard to force a big state to obey the law. That's a matter of politics. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy So, on that point, how does one go about trying to seek asylum? Was Ecuador your first choice? Do you ring around a number of embassies? Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks We looked at about twenty (20) different countries and we were negotiating with a variety of them. Ecuador just got its boots on the ground first, as a kind of practical measure. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yep. And as you mentioned, I mean, British police have been out the front of that building for so many years. Ummm, they're waiting for you to come out in-- Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks [interjects] Well, they've been around the building and in surrounding buildings, which are owned by Harrods, which they have struck a deal with. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yep. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks They've been inside the building. They hide behind the toilet on the exit stairwells. On the rooftops they have surveillance teams all over the place. It's a big operation. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy So where do you think-- Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks -- They admit that they've spent more than twelve (12) million pounds on it so far. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Wow. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks More than fifteen (15) million Australian dollars. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy And, so, where is safe for you within that building, and what's your sleeping arrangements like? Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Within the building? Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yeah. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Well, nowhere is safe. They have managed to gain control from time to time of the floors above and below. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yeah, wow. And, and-- Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks And they've been caught doing that. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yeah, OK. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Ummm, they've even planted bugs in the ambassador's office. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Could they release [???] to us now? 6:57 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Almost certainly. I mean, the United Kingdom -- it's come out in the Snowden revelations -- intercepts everything passing in and out of the UK automatically, regardless of whether it was me or not. But, specifically, the GCHQ, the UK's electronic spy service was revealed to be spying on us. Yes. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Wow. I mean, you're probably used to that now, but that seems quite exciting -- err, for me [laughter]. Ummm, lets-- 7:30 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks I mean, it is exciting, generally speaking. But it's, you know, it's a bit difficult on my family and a bit -- well, frankly, it's bloody unjust being detained without charge for five (5) years-- Andy Lee Hamish & Andy And intrusive, I'd imagine. Well, talking of your family-- Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks -- it's just not right. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy --how do you get a chance to meet with family and friends? Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks With extreme difficulty. Because of the surveillance operation, people who come to the embassy run the risk of being exposed. Very likely to be exposed. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yep. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks So, people who I don't want the UK government being able to -- and its allies to have some pressure on -- obviously can't come to the embassy. 8:12 Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Of course. For their own safety. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Yeah. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yeah. So how do you pass your days? Do you have the internet in there? I imagine it would be tapped as well. Is there a gym? Is there sunlight? Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Well, it's-- it's very interesting that people have that question. It actually reveals something about the way people think about what people do and that doing is somehow coupled to progressing through the physical environment. There's that assumption, but-- Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yep. 8:40 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks --you know, I'm a -- which I like to do. But I do intellectual work, so I write books and I manage an organisation that's spread out all over the world, and its involves really serious stuff, and is fighting all these court cases and banking blockades and so on. So, actually, there's more work to do when you're stuck in an embassy than when you're not stuck at an embassy. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy [laughter] I understand that. But, I mean, a lot of people to do their work -- and need to be stimulated, you know, by some things -- the idea of exercise can stimulate the brain. These things, I mean, do they come readily to you every day, or are there ways that you can tune out? 9:20 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Well, I mean, it's like being on a submarine, right? Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yep. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Maybe Australian navy people [???] submarines-- It's very-- Well, they don't go down for three years. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy No, three (3) years would be a long dive [laughter]. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Three (3) years, no sun. They don't do that. But on the other hand, they don't have such interesting visitors, either. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yeah. I mean, WikiLeaks the website, a global phenomenon. It's divided people, as you are well aware and I think all our listeners would be well aware. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Not really. [Laughter] Not really. It's divided some bullshit commentators. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy [Laughter] 9:55 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks It's certainly divided the Pentagon and it's divided some politicians that have been exposed, but we have global polling across twenty-four (24) countries, so it's not really divided. We have overwhelming support across twenty-four (24) countries. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy No doubt. And amazing that you've obviously been able to win these awards, even though there's allegations against you of espionage, or at least an interest in that area from the US government. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Yeah. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy But, you know, it is a divisive topic. Explain to our audience-- 10:22 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Well, even in the US -- we have forty percent (40%) support in the US. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Well, explain to our audience then why you think it must exist. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Why WikiLeaks must exist? Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yeah. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Well, it's existed nine (9) years now. We actually have the most effective argument -- not the best argument, the most effective argument -- which is: it's now part of the status quo. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yes, it is. 10:44 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks That the world has a place for WikiLeaks, simply by the fact that we've been around for nine (9) years. But in terms of something more interesting than that: well, look the results. We've published ten million (10,000,000) documents now, about every country in the world. And it's about basic education. That if you don't know what's happening in the world -- you can't escape reality, you can't stick your head in the sand -- sooner or later, reality will catch up with you, just like it did, say for example, in the Iraq war. And while often it is because it happens to someone else, eventually, it will happen to you. I mean, we're seeing that, for example, with this terrible mess that has been produced in Syria, which is starting to affect Australia now. So it's not just something that can happen over there. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy No, I understand that and I think people would understand that freedom of information means that people will hide less and be better informed to make decisions. Ummm, are there issues, do you think-- Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Well, it's the risk. It's also the risk. Ummm, that if people in governments and major corporations can't be certain that they can keep their plans secret, that has a really powerful deterrent effect. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yes. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Even if they think the chance of their stuff -- you know, of us getting hold of their stuff is maybe only one in ten thousand, say -- that one in ten thousand chance really does have a deterrent effect. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yeah, it will probably hold people to kind of a higher moral code. But do you think there are issues that need hiding? If I threw an example to you, and I'm sure you've had this question before, but if you came across a document that's outlining a way to stop a terrorist plot and by posting it that might alert terrorists, is that where something where WikiLeaks would show discretion there? 12:41 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks We have got a lot of experience. We've done thousands of cases and ten million (10,000,000) documents, and we have a record of never having got it wrong in relation to a single document, in terms of its accuracy, and no-one being physically harmed as a result; that even the US government has been able to find, and it was forced to say that -- the Pentagon was forced to say under oath in court. So there are decisions to be made in relation to -- Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Well, this one wouldn't be people [skip] ... Like, this would be potentially alerting people so we don't catch them, I suppose. 13:22 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Yeah, it's something that's on people's minds. But there's a reason it's on people's minds, which is because every time the press exposes the Pentagon or, you know, an equivalent agency, killing people, they try to distract on the issue; and they try to change the topic and start talking about what journalists have done. But there's, you know, a long history in the press of -- I'm not aware of a single case where the press has published national security related information and this has led to retribution that has resulted in physical harm of anyone ever. Now, of course, one can theorise that maybe there are some cases. But, in practice, it doesn't happen. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yep. Well, many people agree with you. You've won so many awards for your work while being in the Ecuadorian embassy. Who accepts those awards for you on your behalf -- at the actual events? I mean, do you do a little 'piece de video' [??], or send in someone along with a note? 14:29 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Sometimes we send someone along, sometimes they bring things back here. Sometimes it's, you know-- it's really the whole team that deserves the award. It's why I am most prominently getting the lightning, there's quite a big team of people who do the actual work. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Do you feel there are days where the cause that you're fighting-- You know, it's obviously taken over your life in every extreme because you are confined to the embassy. I mean, there would be days you yearn for normality. What are the key things you miss, do you think? Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Well, I often get that question. I'm not going to give the bastards the pleasure of saying what I miss. They want very much to turn me into some kind of deterrent. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yep. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks I'm someone who has not even been charged, so I'm not going to get into the business of deterring people from following in my footsteps. I want to encourage people to follow in my footsteps. But, ummm-- Andy Lee Hamish & Andy I appreciate that. 15:35 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks -- so [inaudible]. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yep. Let me play on then. Like you mentioned, there are so many cables and documents on WikiLeaks, it makes sense to me to put them in a book. I'll tell you why. It's because I don't know where to start sometimes. If I went to WikiLeaks the website, there's just so much information. So if it's a little bit easier to consume, potentially more people are going to do that. Is that where you see the benefit of The WikiLeaks Files? Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Well, we ended up with so much information. Now we've done what Google has done. We have a sophisticated search engine which is on the front page. So you can put in some guy that your sister is about to go out with, or something, in the name. We see quite a lot of that. Yeah, so there's that way of doing things and that's fast. But in terms of something more nuanced, yeah, that's why we wrote this book. Because we wanted to see something much more in depth, in terms of looking at the structural relationships between countries. Not just a little nugget here and there, but, you know, what's happening in Syria, for example, as far as our material is concerned -- does it give an insight into what is happening? And it does. I mean, it shows very clearly that we have, if you like, part of the plan the US started erecting from at least 2006 to overthrow the Syrian government. Well before the problems in the Arab Spring. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Is the book available in the US? 17:15 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks It's available in the US, it's available in the UK, yeah. The US is an interesting country. In some ways it's better than the United Kingdom. OK, it's a militarised country, which is problematic; a very large and powerful country. On the other hand, if you look at concentrations of power, there is New York, Washington, California, broadly speaking, and the South. Texas. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yes. 17:49 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Now, to make that more concrete, seventeen percent (17%) of corporate registrations are in New York, whereas if you look -- and that's the max -- the city with the most. Whereas, if you look at the United Kingdom, more than eighty percent (80%) of corporate registrations are in London, [inaudible ???] are in London. Just imagine how bad the US would be, if for the past four hundred (400) years, Washington was in the same place as New York, as LA, as Houston. UK's a very tightly integrated society, with a conformist, controlling social structure. So we see, in the US, a lot more support for me and WikiLeaks than we do here in the UK, because there's more freedom to be your own thing in the US -- somewhere in the US. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy OK. And in their Constitution. And they feel that and fight for those rights vehemently. 18:54 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Well, they're rapidly eroding. But, yeah, part of the social make-up has the idea that there should be such a thing as free speech. Obviously, it's being very quickly eroded, but yeah we have-- In practice that is translated to on the ground support -- significant support for us -- within the United States. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy You used to be (or, I read) -- and whether you like the term, I'm not sure -- a hacker. And I read that you were hacking for good, not evil; and that's why authorities were lenient back in the day. What type of -- again, the term 'hacking' -- Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks No good deed goes unpunished, right? Andy Lee Hamish & Andy [Laughter] Yes. What type of hacking did you get up to and what made it good? I couldn't really quite understand that bit. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Well, there's-- I don't like this term. I mean, it's used as a propaganda term. Steve Jobs was also a hacker. Bill Gates was also a hacker. At the same age -- which is, you know, when I was a teenager. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Is there another term you'd like to replace it with? Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks No, I don't. I think it's a perfectly nice term. It's been bastardised because now you've got these, you know, Eastern European mafia hacking your grandmother-- Andy Lee Hamish & Andy [Laughing] Yeah. 20:12 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks So people don't like it. But in terms of exploring the early internet, before, you know, normal people were allowed on the internet, while it was still a military and research object, yeah, I was there, you know, reading Pentagon generals' e-mails each night when I was seventeen. And it starts to give you a-- You know, Australia's a pretty isolated place, so it starts to -- it allows you to, sort of, see a little bit about how the world is actually structured from the inside. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Can you remember that feeling, when you first got in and you realised that you could go in and read the Pentagon's e-mails? Can you remember that feeling? 20:56 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Yeah, it's a sort of buzz that you get that is like, you know, like any kind of -- like parachuting or something like that. The same adrenalin producing activity-- Andy Lee Hamish & Andy --exhilarating. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks --but -- but, also has an intellectual and political side. So it's also a buzz associated with learning, not just the risk of the experience but, you know, that you're learning about the world in some important way. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy For someone so-- Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks It is a-- it is quite an amazing thing to be involved in, especially then. Now everyone can go onto the internet. You know, you can get half that. Half that. But, you know, reaching out into the world and understanding information. You know, we can all log onto the internet and do a lot of that now, but back then the internet in Australia was only available to computer hackers and a couple of research institutes. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy [Laughter] Which is incredible. For someone so well informed about the cyber world, do you think our society is too exposed online and, you know, the lay person here and people that aren't super into it -- and our audience may or may not be -- but, from my perspective, I never really know how exposed we are. What do you see the threats there for just everyday people? 22:12 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Look, it's really serious in the long-term. For everyday people, there's a practical reality. The big American internet companies -- Google, Facebook etc -- are constantly recording and intercepting what you're doing. Because if you think you're just using Google when you go to Google search pages, it's not true. It has trackers embedded in most websites, because it has deals with most websites to supply the ads of those websites, or tracking software that the websites use to collect statistics and so on, and it powers most smartphones. So the activity on your smartphone goes to Google. It collects all that. And then the National Security Agency ('NSA') and the FBI in the United States then stick their fangs into Google's data repositories and Facebook's as well, and they also have their own massive surveillance operation, and the Australian government through the ASD -- the Australian Signals Directorate -- also intercepts a lot of information as it goes in and out of the country -- in bulk -- and then exchanges this through what is known as the Five Eyes alliance, which is the alliance of intelligence agencies led by the United States, the NSA, in the Anglo-Christian countries. It's probably, you know, unfamiliar with your listeners, but one of the great structuring principles of the world is what the relationships are between the deep states of various countries. So between the intelligence agencies of the countries. 24:03 And there's a really intimate integration between Australia, the United States, the UK, New Zealand, and Canada, that has been around for -- well, essentially, since post World War II -- that has developed an ever stronger bond as time has gone by. So, in some sense, we should look at those five countries on a geopolitical level as the one country. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yeah, I understand that. So everyday use of our smart phones is essentially writing files on us and giving it straight to them. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Well, yeah, either because the traffic from your phone is going through these mass interception points that these various countries have set up, where data ingresses or egresses a country, goes across some fibre optic cable under the ocean, or because -- and the second factor, is starting to become more of a problem than the first one -- or because, Google is running your smartphone or you're using Facebook services. And those large data repositories are accessible, not only by those companies and their affiliates, but by those jurisdictions. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Ah, Julian, I know I've gone over time but I just want to warp it up. A couple of things. Has your Spanish improved being there at the embassy? Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks A bit. But, you know, I'm someone who, unfortunately, is constantly working in English. So it does distract your language ability when you're focused in one so heavily. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy And, I know that you were at North Queensland, when you were in Australia -- when you grew up -- ummm, are you aware that the North Queensland Cowboys won the NRL final? Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks I am not. I am not, but I'm pleased. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy They did on the Weekend. On Sunday. So I thought -- I was hoping I'd be the first person to tell you. I know you're not number one ticket holder, but congratulations to you and your people up there. [Laughter] Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Thanks. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Julian, thank you, mate. The WikiLeaks Files, out now everybody. Published by Verso and available at Booktopia and also in good bookshops. Have a great day, and you're a very fascinating man. I can very much appreciate how you've stuck to your guns. It's inspiring. Well done. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks OK. Thanks, Andy. Bye, Bye. Take care. --- end: 26:25 --- ---------------------- ꕤ ---------------------- Other UKUSA Agreement multi-lateral secret treaty between intelligence agencies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKUSA_Agreement LATEST BOOK Assange, Co-Author The WikiLeaks Files (2015) | here POLITICAL PERSECUTION  JULIAN ASSANGE Australian Journalist FAQ & Support https://justice4assange.com/  JULIAN ASSANGE Transnational Security Elite Carving Up the World Using Your Tax Money (2010) | here ꕤ