Transcript - Julian Assange Interview - Hamish & Andy, Oct 2015

ꕤ Assange Transcript Source Hamish & Andy Audio - Oct 2015 http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/e/c/f/ecf7164bb3b333a5/Julian_Assange_Interview.mp3?c_id=9990803&expiration=1444478324&hwt=a6576deb465d02a68cbd40bd7149d0c3 JULIAN ASSANGE ꕤ  Copyright Disclaimer under section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for “fair use” for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, education and research. ---------------------- ꕤ ---------------------- TRANSCRIPT [for quotation purposes, confirm audio] Updated Assange Interview Hamish & Andy Show Podcast http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/e/c/f/ecf7164bb3b333a5/Julian_Assange_Interview.mp3?c_id=9990803&expiration=1444478324&hwt=a6576deb465d02a68cbd40bd7149d0c3 [skip intro] Hamish Blake Hamish & Andy Hello. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks G'day, this is Julian Assange here. Hamish Blake Hamish & Andy Hey, Julian, this is Hamish from the Hamish & Andy Show. Mate, thank you so much for taking the time. I'm just about to put you through to Andy. You'll just be talking to Ando. This is actually part of a segment where each of us tried to find a person that the other person would love to interview. Julian Assange WikiLeaks Uh-ha. Hamish Blake Hamish & Andy I'm brining you to Andy as the gift. Julian Assange WikiLeaks I see. I see. I've gotcha. Hamish Blake Hamish & Andy He got me Jeff Probst from Survivor. Ummm, absolutely no offence to you. I think your story's fascinating. But I've already used my interview up. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks The other one has to do the leg work. Hamish Blake Hamish & Andy Yeah. That's right. He got me Jeff. I've had a great time. Available for download [ skip ] ... But I won't chew up any more of your time. I'm going to pop you through to Andy. And best of luck. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Julian. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks G'day Andy. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Hey, thanks for taking the time. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks You're welcome. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Ummm, I'd imagine you've had a lot of in-depth political conversations with extremely informed interviewers. Ummm, I'm just letting you know that this is probably not that interview. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Rarely. Rarely. [Laughter] Andy Lee Hamish & Andy OK. Good. Good. [Laugher] But I am certainly fascinated about your story, and also obviously the new book, The WikiLeaks Files, which is out now -- which we'll cover off. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Yes. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy But I want to start, if I may, with the asylum thing and the fact that you are there in the Ecuadorian embassy. What is the set up? What is the set up, where do you live and what's the set up there? Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks So, right now, I'm in the Ecuadorian Embassy of London, in a police siege -- the longest running police siege ever -- surrounded by a hundred (100) full-time equivalent police from the British government. I've been detained (without charge in any country) in the United Kingdom, for five (5) years. And there's a series of court cases proceeding. Criminal court cases, civil court cases, in different countries: in the UK, in the United states, in Sweden, in Saudi Arabia, in Germany, in Australia, Denmark [and] Iceland. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Mmmm-mmmm. And they're the one-- --and so, I suppose that's the reason why you sought asylum. You obviously don't want to face those charges at the moment. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks I have not been charged. It's an important thing to remember. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yes, I'm sorry. They want you for questioning. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Well, there's quite a large number of cases. The serious one is the US case, where there's a pending prosecution for espionage; in relation -- you were talking the Swedish case -- in relation to the Swedish case, I have already been cleared in that quote 'preliminary investigation' unquote. The state of play now is it's still a 'preliminary investigation'. They have refused to take my statement in five (5) years. Nothing has happened in the case in five (5) years. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy So, how long do you plan to wait, if those investigations around the world and those case -- like you mentioned, the one for espionage? Did you you have a plan when you sought asylum? Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks My plan was to-- It was a very dangerous and difficult environment outside the embassy. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yep. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks And, so, yeah. There was a strategic plan, which is to-- Andy Lee Hamish & Andy [interjects] Avoid them [laughter]. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks --seek and receive asylum, both in a legal sense and in a practical sense -- and get into a country that was safer. The first part of that has been successful. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yep. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks So, I've won the asylum case. Ummm, and that then changes a little bit the legal and political character of everything else that happens, because it has been a formal founding that I have been politically persecuted by the United States. But we still now have to achieve the practical component. The UK's in violation of international law. But so was the Iraq war, right? Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yes Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks So, it's a bit hard to force a big state to obey the law. That's a matter of politics. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy So, on that point, how does one go about trying to seek asylum? Was Ecuador your first choice? Do you ring around a number of embassies? Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks We looked at about twenty (20) different countries and we were negotiating with a variety of them. Ecuador just got its boots on the ground first, as a kind of practical measure. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yep. And as you mentioned, I mean, British police have been out the front of that building for so many years. Ummm, they're waiting for you to come out in-- Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks [interjects] Well, they've been around the building and in surrounding buildings, which are owned by Harrods, which they have struck a deal with. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yep. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks They've been inside the building. They hide behind the toilet on the exit stairwells. On the rooftops they have surveillance teams all over the place. It's a big operation. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy So where do you think-- Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks -- They admit that they've spent more than twelve (12) million pounds on it so far. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Wow. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks More than fifteen (15) million Australian dollars. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy And, so, where is safe for you within that building, and what's your sleeping arrangements like? Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Within the building? Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yeah. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Well, nowhere is safe. They have managed to gain control from time to time of the floors above and below. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yeah, wow. And, and-- Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks And they've been caught doing that. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yeah, OK. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Ummm, they've even planted bugs in the ambassador's office. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Could they release [???] to us now? 6:57 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Almost certainly. I mean, the United Kingdom -- it's come out in the Snowden revelations -- intercepts everything passing in and out of the UK automatically, regardless of whether it was me or not. But, specifically, the GCHQ, the UK's electronic spy service was revealed to be spying on us. Yes. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Wow. I mean, you're probably used to that now, but that seems quite exciting -- err, for me [laughter]. Ummm, lets-- 7:30 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks I mean, it is exciting, generally speaking. But it's, you know, it's a bit difficult on my family and a bit -- well, frankly, it's bloody unjust being detained without charge for five (5) years-- Andy Lee Hamish & Andy And intrusive, I'd imagine. Well, talking of your family-- Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks -- it's just not right. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy --how do you get a chance to meet with family and friends? Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks With extreme difficulty. Because of the surveillance operation, people who come to the embassy run the risk of being exposed. Very likely to be exposed. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yep. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks So, people who I don't want the UK government being able to -- and its allies to have some pressure on -- obviously can't come to the embassy. 8:12 Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Of course. For their own safety. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Yeah. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yeah. So how do you pass your days? Do you have the internet in there? I imagine it would be tapped as well. Is there a gym? Is there sunlight? Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Well, it's-- it's very interesting that people have that question. It actually reveals something about the way people think about what people do and that doing is somehow coupled to progressing through the physical environment. There's that assumption, but-- Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yep. 8:40 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks --you know, I'm a -- which I like to do. But I do intellectual work, so I write books and I manage an organisation that's spread out all over the world, and its involves really serious stuff, and is fighting all these court cases and banking blockades and so on. So, actually, there's more work to do when you're stuck in an embassy than when you're not stuck at an embassy. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy [laughter] I understand that. But, I mean, a lot of people to do their work -- and need to be stimulated, you know, by some things -- the idea of exercise can stimulate the brain. These things, I mean, do they come readily to you every day, or are there ways that you can tune out? 9:20 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Well, I mean, it's like being on a submarine, right? Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yep. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Maybe Australian navy people [???] submarines-- It's very-- Well, they don't go down for three years. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy No, three (3) years would be a long dive [laughter]. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Three (3) years, no sun. They don't do that. But on the other hand, they don't have such interesting visitors, either. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yeah. I mean, WikiLeaks the website, a global phenomenon. It's divided people, as you are well aware and I think all our listeners would be well aware. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Not really. [Laughter] Not really. It's divided some bullshit commentators. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy [Laughter] 9:55 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks It's certainly divided the Pentagon and it's divided some politicians that have been exposed, but we have global polling across twenty-four (24) countries, so it's not really divided. We have overwhelming support across twenty-four (24) countries. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy No doubt. And amazing that you've obviously been able to win these awards, even though there's allegations against you of espionage, or at least an interest in that area from the US government. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Yeah. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy But, you know, it is a divisive topic. Explain to our audience-- 10:22 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Well, even in the US -- we have forty percent (40%) support in the US. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Well, explain to our audience then why you think it must exist. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Why WikiLeaks must exist? Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yeah. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Well, it's existed nine (9) years now. We actually have the most effective argument -- not the best argument, the most effective argument -- which is: it's now part of the status quo. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yes, it is. 10:44 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks That the world has a place for WikiLeaks, simply by the fact that we've been around for nine (9) years. But in terms of something more interesting than that: well, look the results. We've published ten million (10,000,000) documents now, about every country in the world. And it's about basic education. That if you don't know what's happening in the world -- you can't escape reality, you can't stick your head in the sand -- sooner or later, reality will catch up with you, just like it did, say for example, in the Iraq war. And while often it is because it happens to someone else, eventually, it will happen to you. I mean, we're seeing that, for example, with this terrible mess that has been produced in Syria, which is starting to affect Australia now. So it's not just something that can happen over there. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy No, I understand that and I think people would understand that freedom of information means that people will hide less and be better informed to make decisions. Ummm, are there issues, do you think-- Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Well, it's the risk. It's also the risk. Ummm, that if people in governments and major corporations can't be certain that they can keep their plans secret, that has a really powerful deterrent effect. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yes. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Even if they think the chance of their stuff -- you know, of us getting hold of their stuff is maybe only one in ten thousand, say -- that one in ten thousand chance really does have a deterrent effect. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yeah, it will probably hold people to kind of a higher moral code. But do you think there are issues that need hiding? If I threw an example to you, and I'm sure you've had this question before, but if you came across a document that's outlining a way to stop a terrorist plot and by posting it that might alert terrorists, is that where something where WikiLeaks would show discretion there? 12:41 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks We have got a lot of experience. We've done thousands of cases and ten million (10,000,000) documents, and we have a record of never having got it wrong in relation to a single document, in terms of its accuracy, and no-one being physically harmed as a result; that even the US government has been able to find, and it was forced to say that -- the Pentagon was forced to say under oath in court. So there are decisions to be made in relation to -- Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Well, this one wouldn't be people [skip] ... Like, this would be potentially alerting people so we don't catch them, I suppose. 13:22 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Yeah, it's something that's on people's minds. But there's a reason it's on people's minds, which is because every time the press exposes the Pentagon or, you know, an equivalent agency, killing people, they try to distract on the issue; and they try to change the topic and start talking about what journalists have done. But there's, you know, a long history in the press of -- I'm not aware of a single case where the press has published national security related information and this has led to retribution that has resulted in physical harm of anyone ever. Now, of course, one can theorise that maybe there are some cases. But, in practice, it doesn't happen. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yep. Well, many people agree with you. You've won so many awards for your work while being in the Ecuadorian embassy. Who accepts those awards for you on your behalf -- at the actual events? I mean, do you do a little 'piece de video' [??], or send in someone along with a note? 14:29 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Sometimes we send someone along, sometimes they bring things back here. Sometimes it's, you know-- it's really the whole team that deserves the award. It's why I am most prominently getting the lightning, there's quite a big team of people who do the actual work. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Do you feel there are days where the cause that you're fighting-- You know, it's obviously taken over your life in every extreme because you are confined to the embassy. I mean, there would be days you yearn for normality. What are the key things you miss, do you think? Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Well, I often get that question. I'm not going to give the bastards the pleasure of saying what I miss. They want very much to turn me into some kind of deterrent. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yep. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks I'm someone who has not even been charged, so I'm not going to get into the business of deterring people from following in my footsteps. I want to encourage people to follow in my footsteps. But, ummm-- Andy Lee Hamish & Andy I appreciate that. 15:35 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks -- so [inaudible]. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yep. Let me play on then. Like you mentioned, there are so many cables and documents on WikiLeaks, it makes sense to me to put them in a book. I'll tell you why. It's because I don't know where to start sometimes. If I went to WikiLeaks the website, there's just so much information. So if it's a little bit easier to consume, potentially more people are going to do that. Is that where you see the benefit of The WikiLeaks Files? Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Well, we ended up with so much information. Now we've done what Google has done. We have a sophisticated search engine which is on the front page. So you can put in some guy that your sister is about to go out with, or something, in the name. We see quite a lot of that. Yeah, so there's that way of doing things and that's fast. But in terms of something more nuanced, yeah, that's why we wrote this book. Because we wanted to see something much more in depth, in terms of looking at the structural relationships between countries. Not just a little nugget here and there, but, you know, what's happening in Syria, for example, as far as our material is concerned -- does it give an insight into what is happening? And it does. I mean, it shows very clearly that we have, if you like, part of the plan the US started erecting from at least 2006 to overthrow the Syrian government. Well before the problems in the Arab Spring. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Is the book available in the US? 17:15 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks It's available in the US, it's available in the UK, yeah. The US is an interesting country. In some ways it's better than the United Kingdom. OK, it's a militarised country, which is problematic; a very large and powerful country. On the other hand, if you look at concentrations of power, there is New York, Washington, California, broadly speaking, and the South. Texas. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yes. 17:49 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Now, to make that more concrete, seventeen percent (17%) of corporate registrations are in New York, whereas if you look -- and that's the max -- the city with the most. Whereas, if you look at the United Kingdom, more than eighty percent (80%) of corporate registrations are in London, [inaudible ???] are in London. Just imagine how bad the US would be, if for the past four hundred (400) years, Washington was in the same place as New York, as LA, as Houston. UK's a very tightly integrated society, with a conformist, controlling social structure. So we see, in the US, a lot more support for me and WikiLeaks than we do here in the UK, because there's more freedom to be your own thing in the US -- somewhere in the US. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy OK. And in their Constitution. And they feel that and fight for those rights vehemently. 18:54 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Well, they're rapidly eroding. But, yeah, part of the social make-up has the idea that there should be such a thing as free speech. Obviously, it's being very quickly eroded, but yeah we have-- In practice that is translated to on the ground support -- significant support for us -- within the United States. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy You used to be (or, I read) -- and whether you like the term, I'm not sure -- a hacker. And I read that you were hacking for good, not evil; and that's why authorities were lenient back in the day. What type of -- again, the term 'hacking' -- Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks No good deed goes unpunished, right? Andy Lee Hamish & Andy [Laughter] Yes. What type of hacking did you get up to and what made it good? I couldn't really quite understand that bit. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Well, there's-- I don't like this term. I mean, it's used as a propaganda term. Steve Jobs was also a hacker. Bill Gates was also a hacker. At the same age -- which is, you know, when I was a teenager. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Is there another term you'd like to replace it with? Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks No, I don't. I think it's a perfectly nice term. It's been bastardised because now you've got these, you know, Eastern European mafia hacking your grandmother-- Andy Lee Hamish & Andy [Laughing] Yeah. 20:12 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks So people don't like it. But in terms of exploring the early internet, before, you know, normal people were allowed on the internet, while it was still a military and research object, yeah, I was there, you know, reading Pentagon generals' e-mails each night when I was seventeen. And it starts to give you a-- You know, Australia's a pretty isolated place, so it starts to -- it allows you to, sort of, see a little bit about how the world is actually structured from the inside. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Can you remember that feeling, when you first got in and you realised that you could go in and read the Pentagon's e-mails? Can you remember that feeling? 20:56 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Yeah, it's a sort of buzz that you get that is like, you know, like any kind of -- like parachuting or something like that. The same adrenalin producing activity-- Andy Lee Hamish & Andy --exhilarating. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks --but -- but, also has an intellectual and political side. So it's also a buzz associated with learning, not just the risk of the experience but, you know, that you're learning about the world in some important way. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy For someone so-- Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks It is a-- it is quite an amazing thing to be involved in, especially then. Now everyone can go onto the internet. You know, you can get half that. Half that. But, you know, reaching out into the world and understanding information. You know, we can all log onto the internet and do a lot of that now, but back then the internet in Australia was only available to computer hackers and a couple of research institutes. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy [Laughter] Which is incredible. For someone so well informed about the cyber world, do you think our society is too exposed online and, you know, the lay person here and people that aren't super into it -- and our audience may or may not be -- but, from my perspective, I never really know how exposed we are. What do you see the threats there for just everyday people? 22:12 Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Look, it's really serious in the long-term. For everyday people, there's a practical reality. The big American internet companies -- Google, Facebook etc -- are constantly recording and intercepting what you're doing. Because if you think you're just using Google when you go to Google search pages, it's not true. It has trackers embedded in most websites, because it has deals with most websites to supply the ads of those websites, or tracking software that the websites use to collect statistics and so on, and it powers most smartphones. So the activity on your smartphone goes to Google. It collects all that. And then the National Security Agency ('NSA') and the FBI in the United States then stick their fangs into Google's data repositories and Facebook's as well, and they also have their own massive surveillance operation, and the Australian government through the ASD -- the Australian Signals Directorate -- also intercepts a lot of information as it goes in and out of the country -- in bulk -- and then exchanges this through what is known as the Five Eyes alliance, which is the alliance of intelligence agencies led by the United States, the NSA, in the Anglo-Christian countries. It's probably, you know, unfamiliar with your listeners, but one of the great structuring principles of the world is what the relationships are between the deep states of various countries. So between the intelligence agencies of the countries. 24:03 And there's a really intimate integration between Australia, the United States, the UK, New Zealand, and Canada, that has been around for -- well, essentially, since post World War II -- that has developed an ever stronger bond as time has gone by. So, in some sense, we should look at those five countries on a geopolitical level as the one country. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Yeah, I understand that. So everyday use of our smart phones is essentially writing files on us and giving it straight to them. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Well, yeah, either because the traffic from your phone is going through these mass interception points that these various countries have set up, where data ingresses or egresses a country, goes across some fibre optic cable under the ocean, or because -- and the second factor, is starting to become more of a problem than the first one -- or because, Google is running your smartphone or you're using Facebook services. And those large data repositories are accessible, not only by those companies and their affiliates, but by those jurisdictions. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Ah, Julian, I know I've gone over time but I just want to warp it up. A couple of things. Has your Spanish improved being there at the embassy? Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks A bit. But, you know, I'm someone who, unfortunately, is constantly working in English. So it does distract your language ability when you're focused in one so heavily. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy And, I know that you were at North Queensland, when you were in Australia -- when you grew up -- ummm, are you aware that the North Queensland Cowboys won the NRL final? Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks I am not. I am not, but I'm pleased. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy They did on the Weekend. On Sunday. So I thought -- I was hoping I'd be the first person to tell you. I know you're not number one ticket holder, but congratulations to you and your people up there. [Laughter] Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks Thanks. Andy Lee Hamish & Andy Julian, thank you, mate. The WikiLeaks Files, out now everybody. Published by Verso and available at Booktopia and also in good bookshops. Have a great day, and you're a very fascinating man. I can very much appreciate how you've stuck to your guns. It's inspiring. Well done. Julian Assange Publisher WikiLeaks OK. Thanks, Andy. Bye, Bye. Take care. --- end: 26:25 --- ---------------------- ꕤ ---------------------- Other UKUSA Agreement multi-lateral secret treaty between intelligence agencies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKUSA_Agreement LATEST BOOK Assange, Co-Author The WikiLeaks Files (2015) | here POLITICAL PERSECUTION  JULIAN ASSANGE Australian Journalist FAQ & Support https://justice4assange.com/  JULIAN ASSANGE Transnational Security Elite Carving Up the World Using Your Tax Money (2010) | here ꕤ